Game Design Concepts that the Devs and Playerbase has Forgotten

[Malthir]

Hey, you were the one talking about solo instances and then started bringing up non-instanced combat. I had no idea people consider killing 3 random monsters that die in less than 30 seconds compelling combat gameplay. Especially since if you add it all up it might account for 5 extra minutes of combat compared to the 20 hours of walking, talking, reading and cutscenes that make up the 70% of the game.

To a degree you're right, they really need to go back to looking at how other MMO's do it and mimic it, like they did when they made ARR. Take, WoW, ESO, GW2, SWTOR as examples

• WoW, Your quests takes you to an area with stages of objectives in very mob packed zones where you have to fight, get the next objective rinse repeat. You spend most of the time out in the field not select 3 things now come back for 2 hours more cutscenes.
• GW2, Their world quest system is probably the best style of overworld content and something that FF14 could rather easily incorporate, it's basically a more evolved form of Fates.
• ESO, Small story areas with self contained stories that involve instance and fights and sometimes puzzles.
• SWTOR, They should look at how they handle their MSQ system. You have an objective inside a zone generally filled with enemies you have to fight your way through to get to your objective. An example of how this could be implemented in 14 would be, you must go to this cave, and instead of the current system being the objective 20 foot past the cave entrance you do a cutscene and leave, add more depth a sprawling cave system we can't mount run through where we have to fight our way to the objective.

In part I think the game might be better if they stopped letting use travel to teleport out in the field, as in you have to get to an aether crystal to teleport, keep return which functions as a hearth. Basically how it used to be, it may sound annoying but it's much better for engagement and making the world actually feel engaging.

[hydralus]

More like you choosed to ignore it back then. I remember complaining about it but people keep using the excuse of ''It the finale of our 10 years adventure, they got no time for this kind of stuff''. Just go do HW on NG+ and trust me, you will feel the difference after the game spawn 3 monster + on you each 3 quests or so.

Well it seems like a weird thing to complain about a lack of combat in one expansion and then go to the next one and complain about that too. I for one never complain about a lack of combat or how many cutscenes there are because I have a working memory that I base my purchase decisions off of. I didn't expect healers to get any more complex either and hey, look, they didn't. Man it's great being right, because the devs are actually pretty consistent in their ideology. If only other people could pick up on it.

[hydralus]

Okay, and I already proved SB at least has more solo instances, so..?

First you claim there's just as much combat/action, now you are arguing that actually having more combat quests doesn't matter?

I never claimed there is just as much combat/action. I said it's weird you people are acting like it was ever a large portion of the gameplay. There is less combat, absolutely. It's been a downward trend with every expansion. Less combat, more cutscenes. However I will say that the amount of combat prior still seems like you're whining about 5% vs 8% when compared to what the vast, vast majority of what the actual game content is. See, an hour of combat (outside of dungeons/trials) in 20+ hours of walking and reading and cutscenes does not strike me as something to look back to as an example of "balanced" combat vs story. It's still heavily, heavily tilted towards story. I mean if you were happy with HW/SB's level of combat integration then good for you, I guess. To me it's insignificant.

[ThorneDynasty]

"I admit there is less of thing but I don't understand why people complain there's less of thing."

Such a mystery.

(Even by your estimation there used to be 60% more action content by the way)

[Magikazam]

Well it seems like a weird thing to complain about a lack of combat in one expansion and then go to the next one and complain about that too. I for one never complain about a lack of combat or how many cutscenes there are because I have a working memory that I base my purchase decisions off of.

It weird to tell someone that they shouldn't complain cause of a lack of change, with the reason that ''it was like that in the last xpac'' while my initial complain is about how they CHANGED something. Dang my friend should stop playing this game. He didn't like the TP bar when we started back in ARR, Guess he should have uninstalled the game since obviously it will stay in all future xpac....

I had no idea people consider killing 3 random monsters that die in less than 30 seconds compelling combat gameplay.

It not that much compelling but it let me, you know, fight monster and use my jobs skill in a mmorpg. It also give a short break to digest the last bit of the story given to the player....It also better than adding 3 cutscene of talking to other character who have nothing much to say so they will just yap about generic stuff and remind me of what happen in the last cutscene that ive seen 30 sec ago, cause they expect that the player is watching some subway surfer gameplay or family guy clips on the side idk.

[KisaiTenshi]

I came from WoW when I started playing back in ARR and I wanted to do the story. I still think it bad to force it down people throat since it not something everyone want. Locking contents behind the story also make it harder to play with friends who are just starting. People can already skip most cutscenes while doing the story anyway so it just feel weird that you can't just...skip the whole thing whitout paying yknow.

I'm sure I could find hundreds of forum posts here where people literately go "(I came from WoW.) I don't want to do the story, how do I get to playing with my friends/RP immediately" and at the time people were floating the idea of the skip pots and a lot of hostility against having them because "Why are you spending money on a game you are not playing?"

Like I understand the premise of why you want to play with your friends or RP with them, but why pick FFXIV when you apparently had that back in WoW. Like that is the thing I find head-scratching all the time when people bring up other "MMORPG's" doing something better and my mind goes straight to "So go back to that game then."

Square-Enix doesn't always do everything right, and that's okay. But if we are treated to an experience that seems to run away from the formula that we want, we should complain about it. Not bring features from other games that work there because they were part of their game experience. This is why Gacha stuff does not belong in any game, it turns the game into a skinner box and you lose as soon as you run out of real money.

Some people like trials and raids. Sadly while not impossible, it kinda rare finding people who want to do prog or bling prog on old contents. This create a situation that even if you, let say, like the story but want to do endgames encounter, you need to go trough 10 years of story b4 getting access to the most populated endgame contents. Remember, that hundreds of hours of story just to get the right of unlocking the things.

See in my view, if you want to play the FFXIV endgame, but don't actually care about the "lore" or the story, you just do what players do now, they get their friend who has the 45 dollar 8-player mount and uber your entire friend group from objective to objective. That turns ARR from a 30 hour experience into probably 5 if all the cutscenes are skipped. Unfortunately, as you said, there's 10 years of content to get through, and a "level skip" option only makes sense for the people who are only there to RP with their friends.

That depend on the games. The only gacha I play, limbus company, can be completed whitout even rolling in the gacha. People have proven you can even complete the hardest content of the game (wich is optional btw) With the weakest team possible, wich often include characters that are weaker than the base stuff the game give to you.

From what I've seen, as of 2023 FF X sales come up to 20M wich is bigger than og FF7 wich stand at 14m and the remake that stand at 12m. idk why you added FF16 in there, but remeber that the game had kind of bad sales at launch and also it often come ''free'' with PS5 consoles. That how I got mine, I worked at Gamestop during it launch.

Again as I said, the sales of FFX include X and X-2.

Just like every live service game, wich btw include FF14. Don't get invested in this game please.

That's different in that Gacha games shut down and take all the waifus and husbando's with them, leaving nothing for the player but an empty wallet and no memories.

You know what one Gacha game did? The minute they shut down the english version, they copyright claimed every single video of the english version on youtube so that it's not even possible to see what the english version of the game was like. They then updated the game so that none of the "Waifu and Husbando" content was even viewable. It's absolutely ridiculous that a company would destroy the game months after it was published. They could have updated the game to strip out the "online store" gacha mechanic and there would have still been a game. But no, better destroy all the good will of the customer so they don't get invested in your next game.

That is why I will never touch a Square-Enix gacha. They have done it multiple times, I do not trust Square Enix to leave me with a game I can still play, so I'm just going to skip any game that comes out on mobile first.

[SwadTheFrog]

I'll give you the same genuine challenge I gave Shurrikhan (who apparently can't back up his words?) - please prove what you just said. Show me where I've used a strawman fallacy. Interesting that you tacitly acknowledged that because of your (false?) impression from other threads, you did put words in my mouth here.

I think something that might help with your perspective on me is my intentions, though. I'm not generally expecting to change people's minds here. I'm pretty confident I know the kind of echo chamber that's been set up and the type of people that push it. I've also seen what happens to people who post positive things meekly. I know the biggest thing that certain kinds of people aren't used to is having someone they're pushing around actually push back, so I do.

And no, a couple of people going into a deluge of negative posts to say a couple positive things is not equivalent to a deluge of people trying to take over and wreck any rare positive thread that dares crop up. Little squeaks in a giant sea of negativity are not equivalent to a chorus invading a positive thread to drown it out. The group that has the immense numerical advantage bears the brunt of responsibility there. If your post is an attempt at being genuine, please, please take some time to learn what the concept of a metaphorical "echo chamber" refers to. Asking for one or two positive threads to stay positive in a sea of dozens of negative threads is "literally" the opposite of an echo chamber.

But I'll leave my challenge to you again - please show me where I have set up a strawman fallacy.

I have no need or desire to go hunting on your post history. Your attitude is very upsetting and dismissive, and it saddens me that a far more friendly and reasonable approach doesn't get you to look at what you're saying and realize that "Hey, maybe the people I disagree with aren't all in a magical echo chamber". Sadly, you clearly just want to stay in your own corner and lash out at any and all ideas or opinons that conflict with yours. I hope you eventuallly grow as a person, but I cannot hold a dialogue with you when you are so adamant about how everyone is wrong.

You said it yourself, you're not here to change minds or have a discussion. You're here to agressively state a point you will not budge on. There's no point in having a conversation with you until that changes.

[Aword3213]

I finally got the time to use my pc. I'll try to repond directly to your point since it's the first time I see you refute with earnestness.

Because see, what just happened here is you took someone who posts positive things about the game, lied about what they do, and then used it to attack them (all to the applause of your fellows as the "likes" suggest). That's exactly what I'm takling about.

You need to subject yourself to the same standard as you did to others.

Here, you rant by making generalization in a disrepectful way

watch the echo chamber descend on you, attack you, belittle you, and high-five each other while they do it.

Then you threw a fit when people generalized the opposite side to serve as counterpoint

They were not lying though. Here are the examples showing the hypocrisy in your narrative.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6496141

Point proven! Genuine challenge - please show me where I have posted fallacies, misinformation, etc..
Also, I wasn't even talking about me, specifically, though you could go to the infamous "strike" thread where I dared to point out that I've found I need to heal more often in DT (which multiple other posters have said as well) only to have the first response just insinuate "you must be bad at healing". That's a glowing example of what I mean.

Or just check out any of the positive threads on here. Watch how quickly the negative group descends on it. Here's a great example:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...hread-SPOILERS

Within 1 minute of posting, before the person could even explain what they liked, you had two passive-aggressive attacks getting several dozen high-fives, followed by multiple others down the line.

It's very common to see threads get derailed by irrelevant responses. A lot of times people just ignore the rules set by the opening posts and continue on their marry way to post whatever. Just read some posts in the #healerstrike thread, which you fervently attached to, you'll see it soon got derailed in the same manner as the link you provided.
Here

It just happens. It's natural. Welcome to the internet. Both sides are guilty of this. It's so commonly seen that I don't think it's whataboutism. However, you seemed to be emotional about it. It's fine if you want to point that out, but it would be very disingenuous of you when you're clearly one-sided.

Look at the sheer number of negative threads about virtually anything and compare to the number of positive ones, then watch how even in those minute few positive threads, the negative posters still come in and flood it.

I think you should step away from the forum for some time. If this forum upsets you so much, might I suggest you to frequent a more positive medium such as Reddit?

Why deny what this place is? Cut out the whataboutism (Reddit) and let's just acknowledge reality.

The reality is that many people have engaged with you in good faith in the past. However, you exhibit a clear pattern that you tend to disregard on-point counter argument, then return pages later with the same argument people refuted pages ago, time and time again. It's a very disrespectful behavior. You should notice by now you've been called out by multiple different accounts thanks to your recent contribution to #healerstrike thread.

I think something that might help with your perspective on me is my intentions, though. I'm not generally expecting to change people's minds here. I'm pretty confident I know the kind of echo chamber that's been set up and the type of people that push it. I've also seen what happens to people who post positive things meekly. I know the biggest thing that certain kinds of people aren't used to is having someone they're pushing around actually push back, so I do..

Has it ever occured to you that the biggest echo chamber in the game is the Silent Majority you keep conjuring up in your posts?

You see, if the Silent Majority disagrees with whatever people on the forums are complaining about, and they are 100% happy about the state of the game as you so frequently point out, that means the Silent Majority has only one mind. It fits the definition of Echo Chamber. One can also consider them a Hivemind.

And no, a couple of people going into a deluge of negative posts to say a couple positive things is not equivalent to a deluge of people trying to take over and wreck any rare positive thread that dares crop up. Little squeaks in a giant sea of negativity are not equivalent to a chorus invading a positive thread to drown it out. The group that has the immense numerical advantage bears the brunt of responsibility there. If your post is an attempt at being genuine, please, please take some time to learn what the concept of a metaphorical "echo chamber" refers to. Asking for one or two positive threads to stay positive in a sea of dozens of negative threads is "literally" the opposite of an echo chamber.

Positive threads getting drawned fast is hardly the the fault of negativity. It's just very difficult to generate discussion. If you visit twitter or reddit, you'll see the comment section in positvie topics are very boring to read.

[SwadTheFrog]

Snip

Thank you for summing it up far better than I could have.

[Magikazam]

Like I understand the premise of why you want to play with your friends or RP with them, but why pick FFXIV when you apparently had that back in WoW. Like that is the thing I find head-scratching all the time when people bring up other "MMORPG's" doing something better and my mind goes straight to "So go back to that game then."

Ah yes, let me tell my friend to stop playing FFXIV where they invested hundreds of hours so we can go play other MMORPG. It generally considered good design to let people play together in MMO you know. Gatekeeping people from it cause you're fine with story not being skippable for free is just weird.

But if we are treated to an experience that seems to run away from the formula that we want, we should complain about it. Not bring features from other games that work there because they were part of their game experience. This is why Gacha stuff does not belong in any game"

Ok but I want my MMORPG to have similar good game design that come from other MMORPG. IDK why you keep bringing gacha into like, were talking about thing in other MMO. Again, I don't see how making the story ''optional'' would hurt the people enjoying it.

See in my view, if you want to play the FFXIV endgame, but don't actually care about the "lore" or the story, you just do what players do now, they get their friend who has the 45 dollar 8-player mount and uber your entire friend group from objective to objective.

Right so I need to pay 45 extra buck over my subs so a friend can ''Skip'' the story instead of the game just, letting you into content if you have the level for it. That just locking some good game design behind a paywall. This is as bad as GW2 hiding best gears farming and important story content inside their Living world seasons (If you never played gw2, Living world season are equivalent of those quest we get in the patches between xpac in FFXIV, you need to pay for those in GW2 too.)

That's different in that Gacha games shut down and take all the waifus and husbando's with them, leaving nothing for the player but an empty wallet and no memories.

I do not trust Square Enix to leave me with a game I can still play.

They could close FF14 anytime they want and what do you think will happen to all the cool stuff you bought in the online shop? Again, you blaming it all on gacha when it just a reality every live service game exist, including MMO. You are litteraly trusting Square Enix to leave you with a game that you still play right now, by playing FF14