Game Design Concepts that the Devs and Playerbase has Forgotten

[Striker44]

Because I recognize you from other threads, where all you do is antagonize other people and ignore any form of criticism, no matter how well-structured it is, you tend strawman everything with a very reductvist attittude. This is not a diss at you, by the way, but rather a gentle nudge that you can and should take other people's opinions into account without dismissing them because they don't line up with yours. I agree that DW has a fair few good points (Music, for the most part is really good, and battle content design has gotten better), but your attitude has been genuinely reductive and harmful for discussion.

I'll give you the same genuine challenge I gave Shurrikhan (who apparently can't back up his words?) - please prove what you just said. Show me where I've used a strawman fallacy. Interesting that you tacitly acknowledged that because of your (false?) impression from other threads, you did put words in my mouth here.

I think something that might help with your perspective on me is my intentions, though. I'm not generally expecting to change people's minds here. I'm pretty confident I know the kind of echo chamber that's been set up and the type of people that push it. I've also seen what happens to people who post positive things meekly. I know the biggest thing that certain kinds of people aren't used to is having someone they're pushing around actually push back, so I do.

And no, a couple of people going into a deluge of negative posts to say a couple positive things is not equivalent to a deluge of people trying to take over and wreck any rare positive thread that dares crop up. Little squeaks in a giant sea of negativity are not equivalent to a chorus invading a positive thread to drown it out. The group that has the immense numerical advantage bears the brunt of responsibility there. If your post is an attempt at being genuine, please, please take some time to learn what the concept of a metaphorical "echo chamber" refers to. Asking for one or two positive threads to stay positive in a sea of dozens of negative threads is "literally" the opposite of an echo chamber.

But I'll leave my challenge to you again - please show me where I have set up a strawman fallacy.

[SwadTheFrog]

I'll give you the same genuine challenge I gave Shurrikhan (who apparently can't back up his words?) - please prove what you just said. Show me where I've used a strawman fallacy. Interesting that you tacitly acknowledged that because of your (false?) impression from other threads, you did put words in my mouth here.

I think something that might help with your perspective on me is my intentions, though. I'm not generally expecting to change people's minds here. I'm pretty confident I know the kind of echo chamber that's been set up and the type of people that push it. I've also seen what happens to people who post positive things meekly. I know the biggest thing that certain kinds of people aren't used to is having someone they're pushing around actually push back, so I do.

And no, a couple of people going into a deluge of negative posts to say a couple positive things is not equivalent to a deluge of people trying to take over and wreck any rare positive thread that dares crop up. Little squeaks in a giant sea of negativity are not equivalent to a chorus invading a positive thread to drown it out. The group that has the immense numerical advantage bears the brunt of responsibility there. If your post is an attempt at being genuine, please, please take some time to learn what the concept of a metaphorical "echo chamber" refers to. Asking for one or two positive threads to stay positive in a sea of dozens of negative threads is "literally" the opposite of an echo chamber.

But I'll leave my challenge to you again - please show me where I have set up a strawman fallacy.

I have no need or desire to go hunting on your post history. Your attitude is very upsetting and dismissive, and it saddens me that a far more friendly and reasonable approach doesn't get you to look at what you're saying and realize that "Hey, maybe the people I disagree with aren't all in a magical echo chamber". Sadly, you clearly just want to stay in your own corner and lash out at any and all ideas or opinons that conflict with yours. I hope you eventuallly grow as a person, but I cannot hold a dialogue with you when you are so adamant about how everyone is wrong.

You said it yourself, you're not here to change minds or have a discussion. You're here to agressively state a point you will not budge on. There's no point in having a conversation with you until that changes.

[Magikazam]

1. This isn't an arcade game. Not every game needs to be styled after arcade games to be enjoyable. If you want the immediate gratification that an arcade style game can provide, play one. There are thousand of free to play games available to choose from.

This has nothing to do with Arcade game. People don't love being forced into long tutorial or just, bunch of back to back cutscene that lock you from doing what you want. FFXIV take 15 levels b4 giving you the option to even travel to other town or just do a dungeon, In those levels, you just get to play a very generic story that barely introduce scion and basic lore for each town. I could go on, but it no secret that FFXIV early game is bad in more than one way. People who get past the slug early game often do so cause they come in with the knowledge the game become better later on.

2. This game is built around the story. You can skip most of it if you want but that's going to leave a poor experience. Are you sure this is the game you want to be playing when there are plenty out there where the story is just an afterthought?

What if people don't like the story that much but like other part of the gameplay, or worst yet, what if they just want to play some new contents with their friendgroup? Having most of the content being locked behind story has it downside. Like, let say I got a friend who ''new'' into the game and he see me grinding Eureka and ask how to get there to play with me. Well, we can't just do something silly like grind one of his class to level 70 and walk him to Kugane. He need to complete MSQ up to stormblood end.

It seriously weird how people act like there litteraly no possible alternative to playing trought the whole thing or paying extra cash to skip it. I could even add that it funny for a game where story is important to lock tons of lore out of player reach cause we can't play 1.0 anymore.

1. 4. Good game design will be different things to different players.

Not really, it pretty clear what is considered good design or not. What people can argue on is how some bad game design can be used to it advantage. Take the exemples I just gave above with the MSQ. Locking all the content in a MMO behind a long story quest is bad design. Most people play MMO to interact with friends or just other people so locking them like that limit their options a lot until they spend hours into the game. HOWEVER, most people don't mind, cause that encourage you to go trough the important story and you can talk about and share the good moment you had in it with your friend group.

[Ozmandis]

If you use the story excuse for lack of gameplay, I may ask : why do we even have a game in the first place and why is it a MMO ? Just make a visual novel, a movie or a book then.

[4clubbedace]

mucho texto

wow almost as if different devlopers have different insights and priorities in reegards to their ideal visions

i played erdtree right before dawntrail, very different game with different values in regards to gaeplay, story, immersion, and interaction. i dont want yoshi to be miyazaki and i dont want miyazaki to be yoshi p

[Payadopa]

Someone seems to have forgotten though that the Final Fantasy series is famed for story more than gameplay (and that this is a Final Fantasy game first and foremost.).

They all have story and gameplay. And the older ones were also good on the whole game front up until 13.

I played every single Final Fantasy and none of them are a visual novel like XIV is nowadays with literally nothing to do in-between but press X twice until the mob dies. It's technically still a game but I'd be lying if a said I found it engaging.

I'm convinced that if you were to transplant the current jobs into a single player game and remove the FF IP the game would flop without the story to carry it.

[hydralus]

So we've had very little combat outside of trials and dungeons for ~8 years. Why is this being brought up all the time now? Are a bunch of new people joining who don't know how it works?

[Magikazam]

So we've had very little combat outside of trials and dungeons for ~8 years. Why is this being brought up all the time now? Are a bunch of new people joining who don't know how it works?

The ratio of gameplay/story was way more balanced pre-Endwalker. Even back in SHB we had tons of small combat vs some mobs in-between cutscene and talking to npc. It is, in fact a relatively new thing that the MSQ chain back to back cutscene and ''go talk to this npc that moved slightly on the map''. If anything they just replaced most of the gameplay part with ''Rp walk with this character while he randomly stop at some spot to drop some minor lore, just b4 he start running for no reasons!1!!!1!''

[TheOperator3712]

So we've had very little combat outside of trials and dungeons for ~8 years. Why is this being brought up all the time now? Are a bunch of new people joining who don't know how it works?

Cutscene size and density has been significantly increased over the last two expansions. Combined with the generally perceived lessening of quality in DT, people are going to of course complain.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus..._endwalker_in/

[hydralus]

Cutscene size and density has been significantly increased over the last two expansions. Combined with the generally perceived lessening of quality in DT, people are going to of course complain.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus..._endwalker_in/

See that's what's weird to me. I didn't hear about any of this complaining in Endwalker despite it being the same thing. Hell arguably Shadowbringers barely had any combat either. What was there, 3 fights with Ran'jit and then two larger field battles? It's like complaining you got 1 crumb instead of 2 I'd think people would be used to there being barely any combat by now.