Remove Trust System from future Trials

[Turtledeluxe]

Characters and cutscenes are literally part of the narrative.....and the build up and participation in trials is a big part of the narrative overall, which the Trust system is a part of.

The trust system is not a part of the narrative. It's gameplay. If you remove the character (that you dont like ) and the cutscenes (that reference Trusts) you could still have the Trust system. Hence why I said, your real issue is with characters and cutscenes, or is it? Maybe you just don't like that people are choosing to play with NPCs but don't want it to say that? I'm unsure.

That's why people keep asking why you're trying to get rid of an optional feature. It seems more like you desire control over how other people play the game for..some reason??

[MeteorShan]

The Azem crystal is literally summoning seven random adventurers from out of nowhere to team up with you. In Ultima Thule you use the crystal to summon seven random people, who have no connection to the plot you just went through, and yoink them into your fight. The Trusts are at least characters relevant to the plot of the MSQ, despite how flimsy a reason they have for being there. I'm not suggesting there should be an alternative to the Azem crystal, only that the Azem crystal from a narrative standpoint feels more jarring and flow breaking to me than 7 NPCs that have been consistently in the MSQ up to that point joining in for whatever reason.

Okay you seemed to miss the point and thank you for not being able to provide an alternative solution.

As I mentioned in my OP, the Trust system is good narratively for Trials when used correctly. It completely fits for the Hydaelyn trial as we have had the other seven scions journey with us down into the Aetherial Sea, so they've been with us on the journey to the end destination which is the mother crystal, Hydaelyn even speaks to each of the seven scions one at a time to give even more weight to them being there. On the flip side, it would feel pretty jarring during the MSQ to have the Scions all there with you, instead use Duty Finder you do the trial with 7 random people without even using Azem's crystal. That's cool though, some people will no doubt preferred doing that trial with other random players, but having all that dialogue and interaction between the Scions and Hydaelyn about testing us all and instead do the trial with 7 randoms would break the narrative.

I did say that I understood the Azem crystal summoning might not be everyone's cup of tea, however it was explained to us well in the SHB patches MSQ when we speak with the memory of Hythlodaeus, therefore narratively it makes sense when we use it given we ourselves are Azem, even if you don't like it as a tool. It's far better compared to say when we're in the Ruby Sea with Alisaie and Lyse, we enter the vault and Susano appears then Alisaie tells us to find 7 adventurer friends who might be nearby in the area. If this was the case also in say Ultima Thule WITHOUT using the Azem crystal, why on earth would there seven random people at the edge of existence?

The 93 and 99 trials do not use the Trust systems narratively well, several NPCs are shoehorned in out of thin air or doing a 180 based on how their characters would behave, which is simply bad writing and lacks narrative cohesion. FFXIV is lauded as the story driven mmorpg of the genre, it should do better than it did during the Dawntrail trails from a narrative perspective.

[MeteorShan]

It's an optional feature what is wrong with you?
My favorite time in the game when I play the MSQ is doing all the dungeons and trials with the trust system and the characters I'm with in the story, that's the best they have implemented.
You have roullettes and other things to make your trials. Shit open a party finder and ask for help if you need it. Don't use the trust system if you don't want to, you are not bound to use it.

Plesae keep the Trust system, it's the best.

I didn't say at any point to remove it completely from the game. So far it completely works for dungeons, it worked for the Mother Crystal in Endwalker but narratively it did not work for the 93 and 99 trials. If they had done the story build up better and it made more sense prior to those trials commencing, I would have zero problem. But it is affecting the writing and they are now deliberately trying to find ways to ensure there are 7 or more NPCs around you, even if those people have no place being there. That is a problem.

[MeteorShan]

Valigarmanda wouldn't need to exist if not to show Zoraal Ja's obsession with proving that he's worthy of being a miracle and prove that he can be better than Gulool Ja Ja. He didn't help out of goodness in his heart, he wanted to prove himself.

His disappointment over learning that Valigarmanda was weak compared to when it fought Gulool Ja Ja also serves as a hook to why he couldn't feel satisfied enough with killing Gulool Ja Ja, who was old and had the head of reason dead, and he became obsessed with beating Wuk Lamat who did beat Gulool Ja Ja at his prime - something that Zoraal Ja couldn't do.

If anything, him NOT being there would go against his character - Zoraal Ja would never miss a chance to prove himself worthy of being the miracle. His character is eternally falling short of proving himself. He beat Valigarmanda but it was weak. He failed to beat Gulool Ja Ja in his prime. He failed to become dawnservant. He beat Gulool Ja Ja but he was old. He failed to beat Koana's army. He failed to beat Wuk Lamat in combat. He's perma cucked. That's his character.

Zoraal Ja is arguably the worst written villain in the entirety of FFXIV, his reasoning for the point where his character gets to as one of main villains is stretching things to the extreme and isn't plausible. But that's a different writing issue and not the point of my OP.

Prior to the trial he literally walks away from group, this is in line with his character so he can get ahead of everyone in an attempt to win the contest. His motivation for wanting to win the rite of succession is to plunge Tural into war so that the population can experience the horrors of it and become stronger as a people after suffering through it. Having Valigarmanda laying carnage across Urqopacha and beyond completely fits this motivation. When he suddenly does a u-turn and reappears, even Sareel Ja is shaking his head in disbelief at what he's doing.

[SDaemon]

Okay you seemed to miss the point and thank you for not being able to provide an alternative solution.

As I mentioned in my OP, the Trust system is good narratively for Trials when used correctly. It completely fits for the Hydaelyn trial as we have had the other seven scions journey with us down into the Aetherial Sea, so they've been with us on the journey to the end destination which is the mother crystal, Hydaelyn even speaks to each of the seven scions one at a time to give even more weight to them being there. On the flip side, it would feel pretty jarring during the MSQ to have the Scions all there with you, instead use Duty Finder you do the trial with 7 random people without even using Azem's crystal. That's cool though, some people will no doubt preferred doing that trial with other random players, but having all that dialogue and interaction between the Scions and Hydaelyn about testing us all and instead do the trial with 7 randoms would break the narrative.

I did say that I understood the Azem crystal summoning might not be everyone's cup of tea, however it was explained to us well in the SHB patches MSQ when we speak with the memory of Hythlodaeus, therefore narratively it makes sense when we use it given we ourselves are Azem, even if you don't like it as a tool. It's far better compared to say when we're in the Ruby Sea with Alisaie and Lyse, we enter the vault and Susano appears then Alisaie tells us to find 7 adventurer friends who might be nearby in the area. If this was the case also in say Ultima Thule WITHOUT using the Azem crystal, why on earth would there seven random people at the edge of existence?

The 93 and 99 trials do not use the Trust systems narratively well, several NPCs are shoehorned in out of thin air or doing a 180 based on how their characters would behave, which is simply bad writing and lacks narrative cohesion. FFXIV is lauded as the story driven mmorpg of the genre, it should do better than it did during the Dawntrail trails from a narrative perspective.

I didn't miss the point. I'm making the argument that the Trust system is the better narrative option than the Azem Crystal function. Are both setups without flaws? Of course not. But to remove Trusts which is currently the superior option imo would be a mistake.

In your examples.

If Trusts for trials had been a thing back then, SE would have set up the plot in a way that 7 NPCs would be present. How? Thats just a matter of literary freedom at this point since we're talking about a story that has already been written, but I've no doubt they would have had them be present for some reason or another, good or bad. That could very well have meant the story added some able-bodied NPCs leading up to Susano or the Scions not being yeeted back home early for Endsinger and the narrative changing accordingly.

As for the present 93 and 99 Trials. I really did not experience any qualms for the NPCs present at either Trial, especially the 93 Trial which made sense narratively to me for what was happening. The 99 Trial by that point in the story there were so many mishaps narratively that the barebone reason for them showing up was honestly enough to continue forward with the story without a second thought.

Can SE improve the experience? Absolutely. But the system doesn't need to be removed.

[MeteorShan]

If Trusts for trials had been a thing back then, SE would have set up the plot in a way that 7 NPCs would be present. How? Thats just a matter of literary freedom at this point since we're talking about a story that has already been written, but I've no doubt they would have had them be present for some reason or another, good or bad. That could very well have meant the story added some able-bodied NPCs leading up to Susano or the Scions not being yeeted back home early for Endsinger and the narrative changing accordingly.

So therefore do you acknowledge that the narrative is important for who's accompanying you via the Trust system for trials?

I appreciate it's something they only implemented from SHB and it would be difficult to go back and implement it for all HW to SB trials, especially for several where there's no real viable way narratively to have 7 NPCs around you to do the trial with. It would have been nice to have and I have no problem with the Trust system as an actual system, something which the majority of people haven't seemed to grasp yet and I have explicitly said it's great for dungeons. It's simply the execution of it narratively for the Trials that it hasn't worked cohesively in Dawntrail.

[Priddy]

I see we've hit the rock bottom of expansion discourse where people are unironically saying "Being able to do this content with story characters is detrimental to the story and formulaic, we should actually just summon 7 players for every fight because that's definitely narratively relevant and not at all formulaic"

[Ayalu]

I mean in theory we could also establish that we can fill up trust groups with the azem magic and we use the gauntlet class of light figures that Elidibus summoned. That would allow to do trust trials with all narrative characters needed even if they are not enough to normally fill it.

[Jojoya]

The use of the Azem crystal cutscenes at the start of a trial and grouping with people that way through Duty Finder is really cool, I would prefer that being the sole method moving forwards rather than having the Trust system option for any other trials. If anything, I actually think they could also add an Azem crystal cutscene (which can be skippable of course) to the start of dungeons when you team up with three other random players through the Duty Finder.

There is no need to force everyone else to play the way you want them to for your personal benefit that has no consideration for what they want.

If you want to use Duty Finder, then use Duty Finder. I did it that way myself for all the DT trials.

If others want to use Trust, let them use Trust.

[SDaemon]

So therefore do you acknowledge that the narrative is important for who's accompanying you via the Trust system for trials?

I appreciate it's something they only implemented from SHB and it would be difficult to go back and implement it for all HW to SB trials, especially for several where there's no real viable way narratively to have 7 NPCs around you to do the trial with. It would have been nice to have and I have no problem with the Trust system as an actual system, something which the majority of people haven't seemed to grasp yet and I have explicitly said it's great for dungeons. It's simply the execution of it narratively for the Trials that it hasn't worked cohesively in Dawntrail.

Yes, for any Trials they implement the Trust system for the NPCs used should be NPCs that are present at that point in the story, the reason they are present being a good one is up to the writers. But having said that, I would still prefer flimsy narrative reasons for present NPCs being involved in the fight over Azem random people pulled from the void.

Given the option of removing Trusts from Trials or leaving them and having SE improve. I would always choose the latter.