Remove Trust System from future Trials

[SDaemon]

Yes the Wuk Lmao dislike is real, that is being discussed in other threads and people are going to speak up about it. However I do not wish to create another thread revolving around that, although I realise how I wrote the OP so I have caused this reaction rather than starting a critical conversation about this topic.

To the point at hand though, for example, the Valigarmanda trial at 93, although built up in an okay manner at best, it still has to shoehorn in Zarool Ja to do a complete 180 and help the group to create the 8 required for a Trust fight, despite this not being a part of his character, which is pretty jarring and especially so once you see how he pans out throughout the rest of DT.

The level 99 trial Trust team creation is pretty inexcusable, with several Scions just appearing out of thin air to fulfil the requirements for a Trust fight. It really is quite grating on the narrative and the build ups to these fights, this is unfortunately a writing problem.

Honestly, I find the Azem crystal nonsense, where you yank random nobodies from across the rift to help you, much more of a cheap narrative pull than characters from the MSQ popping up for a trial fight.

[MeteorShan]

Honestly, I find the Azem crystal nonsense, where you yank random nobodies from across the rift to help you, much more of a cheap narrative pull than characters from the MSQ popping up for a trial fight.

I can understand why people could feel that way, although I would still argue that the Azem crystal summoning is far better than having seven random adventurers appearing out of nowhere to team up with you like it's done in the earlier expansions. How would that feel when you're in Ultima Thule of the edge of existence and seven people just appear with no reasoning behind it?

I'd also put it to you then in a different way....what alternative would you have, compared to the Azem crystal, as a reason for 7 other adventurers to appear at your side?

[SDaemon]

I can understand why people could feel that way, although I would still argue that the Azem crystal summoning is far better than having seven random adventurers appearing out of nowhere to team up with you like it's done in the earlier expansions. How would that feel when you're in Ultima Thule of the edge of existence and seven people just appear with no reasoning behind it?

I'd also put it to you then in a different way....what alternative would you have, compared to the Azem crystal, as a reason for 7 other adventurers to appear at your side?

The Azem crystal is literally summoning seven random adventurers from out of nowhere to team up with you. In Ultima Thule you use the crystal to summon seven random people, who have no connection to the plot you just went through, and yoink them into your fight. The Trusts are at least characters relevant to the plot of the MSQ, despite how flimsy a reason they have for being there. I'm not suggesting there should be an alternative to the Azem crystal, only that the Azem crystal from a narrative standpoint feels more jarring and flow breaking to me than 7 NPCs that have been consistently in the MSQ up to that point joining in for whatever reason.

[MeteorShan]

The Azem crystal is literally summoning seven random adventurers from out of nowhere to team up with you. In Ultima Thule you use the crystal to summon seven random people, who have no connection to the plot you just went through, and yoink them into your fight. The Trusts are at least characters relevant to the plot of the MSQ, despite how flimsy a reason they have for being there. I'm not suggesting there should be an alternative to the Azem crystal, only that the Azem crystal from a narrative standpoint feels more jarring and flow breaking to me than 7 NPCs that have been consistently in the MSQ up to that point joining in for whatever reason.

Okay you seemed to miss the point and thank you for not being able to provide an alternative solution.

As I mentioned in my OP, the Trust system is good narratively for Trials when used correctly. It completely fits for the Hydaelyn trial as we have had the other seven scions journey with us down into the Aetherial Sea, so they've been with us on the journey to the end destination which is the mother crystal, Hydaelyn even speaks to each of the seven scions one at a time to give even more weight to them being there. On the flip side, it would feel pretty jarring during the MSQ to have the Scions all there with you, instead use Duty Finder you do the trial with 7 random people without even using Azem's crystal. That's cool though, some people will no doubt preferred doing that trial with other random players, but having all that dialogue and interaction between the Scions and Hydaelyn about testing us all and instead do the trial with 7 randoms would break the narrative.

I did say that I understood the Azem crystal summoning might not be everyone's cup of tea, however it was explained to us well in the SHB patches MSQ when we speak with the memory of Hythlodaeus, therefore narratively it makes sense when we use it given we ourselves are Azem, even if you don't like it as a tool. It's far better compared to say when we're in the Ruby Sea with Alisaie and Lyse, we enter the vault and Susano appears then Alisaie tells us to find 7 adventurer friends who might be nearby in the area. If this was the case also in say Ultima Thule WITHOUT using the Azem crystal, why on earth would there seven random people at the edge of existence?

The 93 and 99 trials do not use the Trust systems narratively well, several NPCs are shoehorned in out of thin air or doing a 180 based on how their characters would behave, which is simply bad writing and lacks narrative cohesion. FFXIV is lauded as the story driven mmorpg of the genre, it should do better than it did during the Dawntrail trails from a narrative perspective.

[SDaemon]

Okay you seemed to miss the point and thank you for not being able to provide an alternative solution.

As I mentioned in my OP, the Trust system is good narratively for Trials when used correctly. It completely fits for the Hydaelyn trial as we have had the other seven scions journey with us down into the Aetherial Sea, so they've been with us on the journey to the end destination which is the mother crystal, Hydaelyn even speaks to each of the seven scions one at a time to give even more weight to them being there. On the flip side, it would feel pretty jarring during the MSQ to have the Scions all there with you, instead use Duty Finder you do the trial with 7 random people without even using Azem's crystal. That's cool though, some people will no doubt preferred doing that trial with other random players, but having all that dialogue and interaction between the Scions and Hydaelyn about testing us all and instead do the trial with 7 randoms would break the narrative.

I did say that I understood the Azem crystal summoning might not be everyone's cup of tea, however it was explained to us well in the SHB patches MSQ when we speak with the memory of Hythlodaeus, therefore narratively it makes sense when we use it given we ourselves are Azem, even if you don't like it as a tool. It's far better compared to say when we're in the Ruby Sea with Alisaie and Lyse, we enter the vault and Susano appears then Alisaie tells us to find 7 adventurer friends who might be nearby in the area. If this was the case also in say Ultima Thule WITHOUT using the Azem crystal, why on earth would there seven random people at the edge of existence?

The 93 and 99 trials do not use the Trust systems narratively well, several NPCs are shoehorned in out of thin air or doing a 180 based on how their characters would behave, which is simply bad writing and lacks narrative cohesion. FFXIV is lauded as the story driven mmorpg of the genre, it should do better than it did during the Dawntrail trails from a narrative perspective.

I didn't miss the point. I'm making the argument that the Trust system is the better narrative option than the Azem Crystal function. Are both setups without flaws? Of course not. But to remove Trusts which is currently the superior option imo would be a mistake.

In your examples.

If Trusts for trials had been a thing back then, SE would have set up the plot in a way that 7 NPCs would be present. How? Thats just a matter of literary freedom at this point since we're talking about a story that has already been written, but I've no doubt they would have had them be present for some reason or another, good or bad. That could very well have meant the story added some able-bodied NPCs leading up to Susano or the Scions not being yeeted back home early for Endsinger and the narrative changing accordingly.

As for the present 93 and 99 Trials. I really did not experience any qualms for the NPCs present at either Trial, especially the 93 Trial which made sense narratively to me for what was happening. The 99 Trial by that point in the story there were so many mishaps narratively that the barebone reason for them showing up was honestly enough to continue forward with the story without a second thought.

Can SE improve the experience? Absolutely. But the system doesn't need to be removed.

[MeteorShan]

If Trusts for trials had been a thing back then, SE would have set up the plot in a way that 7 NPCs would be present. How? Thats just a matter of literary freedom at this point since we're talking about a story that has already been written, but I've no doubt they would have had them be present for some reason or another, good or bad. That could very well have meant the story added some able-bodied NPCs leading up to Susano or the Scions not being yeeted back home early for Endsinger and the narrative changing accordingly.

So therefore do you acknowledge that the narrative is important for who's accompanying you via the Trust system for trials?

I appreciate it's something they only implemented from SHB and it would be difficult to go back and implement it for all HW to SB trials, especially for several where there's no real viable way narratively to have 7 NPCs around you to do the trial with. It would have been nice to have and I have no problem with the Trust system as an actual system, something which the majority of people haven't seemed to grasp yet and I have explicitly said it's great for dungeons. It's simply the execution of it narratively for the Trials that it hasn't worked cohesively in Dawntrail.

[SDaemon]

So therefore do you acknowledge that the narrative is important for who's accompanying you via the Trust system for trials?

I appreciate it's something they only implemented from SHB and it would be difficult to go back and implement it for all HW to SB trials, especially for several where there's no real viable way narratively to have 7 NPCs around you to do the trial with. It would have been nice to have and I have no problem with the Trust system as an actual system, something which the majority of people haven't seemed to grasp yet and I have explicitly said it's great for dungeons. It's simply the execution of it narratively for the Trials that it hasn't worked cohesively in Dawntrail.

Yes, for any Trials they implement the Trust system for the NPCs used should be NPCs that are present at that point in the story, the reason they are present being a good one is up to the writers. But having said that, I would still prefer flimsy narrative reasons for present NPCs being involved in the fight over Azem random people pulled from the void.

Given the option of removing Trusts from Trials or leaving them and having SE improve. I would always choose the latter.

[SeriousPan]

Honestly, I find the Azem crystal nonsense, where you yank random nobodies from across the rift to help you, much more of a cheap narrative pull than characters from the MSQ popping up for a trial fight.

Thanks to Azem's Crystal we can now randomly make a fight a Trial instead of a solo duty where we could absolutely smash the hell out of someone. I reckon we could have taken Golbez alone but hey, we got the crystal, might as well call out 7 more dudes.