Viper is not hard, and does not need simplification.

[Ramiee]

Viper is easier to play than Ninja

Viper is basically Reaper.
It's almost identical and is just as easy however it flows better and is more fun. The simplification is for people who think the dot on reaper is bad design and complicated.

[Rhael]

But back to the UI, ultimately the job is designed on the assumption that you'll be relying on cues from there.

The UI is designed with that assumption, but not the job itself.

The moment you try and graduate from needing the UI as a crutch, the job actually takes a disproportionate amount of work to become comfortable with. I can see how other people would view the job as overly complex in that regard.

Vipersight is useless outside of tracking Uncoiled Fury charges. If you need the level of assistance from the UI that the job gauge seems to believe players need, I would strongly suggest working on your mmorpg fundamentals. Develop an understanding of how weaponskill combos work, how to pay attention buff and debuff timers, etc etc. Viper requires a disproportionately low amount of work to become comfortable with. It's very simple, but it requires at least a functional understanding of the basic aspects of how FFXIV (and the style of mmo it's based on, eg wow/swtor/rift/etc) plays.

[Myon88]

As I see it, the issues with viper are exacerbated by how its basic combo finisher further splits into four, of which you'll be presented with two options at any one time. While you may know which positional is needed, you also need to know specifically whether it's e.g flank1, or flank2, that you'll be constantly cycling between.

Unless you keep a mental note of what your last finisher was 3 gcds ago, you'll need to rely on the UI to tell you which one it's gonna be - be it the gauge or your hotbars. Neither of these are very appealing options to me, and both impose a burden on your mental stack that other jobs in the game are not subject to.

So I can't agree that it takes less work to pilot than other jobs. I think some people have internalized playing the game at a certain reduced level of capacity for awareness. People who play the game with their eyes glued to their hotbar will understandably find viper straightforward to play - it is, if you're willing to make that concession.

Like I said, I don't consider that normal though, that's dangerously distracted driving. It's good that you bring up fundamentals because I care about them greatly too. I just think I have higher standards which is probably why I notice where viper's design chafes.

[Rhael]

People who play the game with their eyes glued to their hotbar will understandably find viper straightforward to play - it is, if you're willing to make that concession.

Out of every job in this game, viper is one of the ones that requires me to look at my hotbar the least, and I don't even use the vipersight gauge outside of tracking Uncoiled Fury charges. The mental load of doing little more than alternating between the positionals is really not that high, and even then - you get a buff icon that tells you which positional you will be doing three gcds before you even get to it. This issue really is with an understanding of game fundamentals, not viper's design. Paying attention to your buffs and debuffs is an incredibly foundational skill, which viper's design - as with many job designs - assumes the player understands. Changing the job's design to account for a lack of fundamental understanding regarding how the game itself works is, at best, extremely misguided.

Like I said, I don't consider that normal though, that's dangerously distracted driving.

Keeping track of your rotation's current state is more analogous to keeping track of your car's current state - your speed, positioning, managing blinkers, etc. That's not distracted driving. That's just driving. If someone needing to remember to use their blinkers or watch their speedometer is too much of a mental load, then maybe they shouldn't be on the road.

[Myon88]

Well, with how much subjectivity is involved with perceived difficulty, I don't think the conversation will stay very productive if we go down this road. The game does have something that can help break things down empirically though, something that I invite everyone reading this to try.

The strayborough expert dungeon we have right now has two somewhat notable bosses. I think everyone should be able to perform flawless runs of both of them, tracking hazards solely by themselves, while keeping up an optimal rotation with 100% uptime throughout. I think you should be able to do this three, even five times in a row, no matter the quality of your party (the randomness is part of the fun).

If you've truly become adept at your job, and minimized the effort it takes to pilot, I think this is a reasonable ask. If you're unable to do so, I'd like to gently suggest that in that case, the notion that the job is designed intuitively enough does not hold. I mean, can anyone truly claim a job is operating fine if they are still making mistakes? However straightforward the job was claimed to be, it clearly wasn't sufficient to assist them through this.

[Rhael]

I mean, can anyone truly claim a job is operating fine if they are still making mistakes?

... yes???? This is a complete non-sequitur. A job operating fine does not equate to making mistakes impossible. To continue your car analogy from earlier, that's like forgetting your blinkers and trying to blame the car for not automatically using them for you. A lack of skill or experience from a pilot does not inherently imply a flaw in job design. To reiterate what I stated above, changing the job's design to account for a lack of fundamental understanding regarding how the game itself works is, at best, extremely misguided.

[Leonus]

Whether or not it makes me happy is not the point. It’s just a bunch of people crying over something they haven’t gotten even any details about regarding changes while seemingly “gatekeeping” difficulty… for what? I don’t care if the class changes or not, apparently some do and it’s enough to cry about it without even having a full picture.

[Myon88]

A job operating fine does not equate to making mistakes impossible.

No, it makes complete sense to me. If someone says it's fine for a job to require glancing at their hotbar, and that causes them to be unable to keep up with mechanics that also require attention, then what gives? There's a clear contradiction happening.

So this is what I'm talking about when I say I have higher standards for competence. Other people may be content tunnel visioning on their hotbar and getting carried by someone else doing callouts, but I'm not. I suspect that many people feel this way intuitively, which is why when I heard the news about the feedback (presumably coming from the JP side), I was not surprised at all.

[Virnea]

Unless you keep a mental note of what your last finisher was 3 gcds ago, you'll need to rely on the UI to tell you which one it's gonna be - be it the gauge or your hotbars.

Keep a mental note?... why would anyone struggle to remember something they did 5 seconds ago? what in the world am I reading???
Guys is this the kind of people the devs are trying to accommodate? at this point just delete 90% make the entire rotation a single button so they don't have to think anything. They don't want to engage with the combat system, they just want the easiest way to play around. Never forget guys, we finally had ONE job to have fun, while they had 20 that are easy to play but that wasn't enough. We couldn't have a single job to finally have fun.

[Pentacus]

Isn't busyness the whole point of the job? What identity does it have if not high apm? I've only seen praise for the apm amongst my friends so I'm baffled that they think this is an issue worth addressing.

I’m guessing that the “busyness” is referring to the Coil combo, where you have two positionals and four oGCDs to do within the space of two GCDs happening very frequently, I can’t immediately recall any other situation where you have to do two subsequent positionals, let alone while double weaving, so the speed that they changed this may imply that “positional (double weave) > positional” goes against an internal design guideline and feedback made them aware of that, rather than directly acting on feedback