Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ dungeon difficulty

[Khutulun]

I don't feel that the Elden Ring / Dark Souls comparison is apt for current dungeon difficulty. From where I'm sitting, as someone who wears many hats and tries as many game genres as possible, FF14's current dungeons are still easy. Sure, I've died in a few dungeons, but then after the first death I learned the mechanic and proceeded to "not do the thing that got me killed".

That said, considering the few threads that have popped up I'm not going to ignore the complaints. Seeing as there are people who dislike the increased difficulty enough to consider unsubbing, and then there are people like me where if the game suddenly becomes easier than it currently is I might fall asleep and accidentally hit the unsub button myself... MSQ dungeons clearly need variants for both casual players and players desiring a more "expert" mode experience. Could even separate them out so only the normal variant appears in leveling queues, and the "expert" variant appears in another tier of queue (an expert difficulty dungeon only queue).

...And then while they're at it they could make trust NPCs more reliable in terms of moving out of the way of mechanics + DPSing. While I haven't used Trust for DT, I recall the Trust NPCs (when I was kicking around leveling them for fun) sometimes failing mechanics or snapshotting mechanics- neither of which helps someone who needs the Trust.

-snip in order to match character length limits-

I kind of fail to see how the dungeon category called Expert should be entry level casual- i.e. something that can be rolled through without too much thought, concern, or general attention given to the things happening on screen. There's a word in the name that should mean something. If the bare minimum level of control manipulation and brain power to kill a random world mob isn't enough to beat the expert dungeon: we're getting somewhere in terms of making expert dungeons what they should be. MSQ dungeon difficulty is one thing, because everyone has to do them and they will gate you from the rest of the game. Expert dungeon difficulty is an entire different subject matter. Combining the subjects will, in all likelihood, destroy any capacity for two portions of the playerbase to see eye to eye on potential changes to difficulty and difficulty option variety.

[Alyx-Greywind]

I kind of fail to see how the dungeon category called Expert should be entry level casual- i.e. something that can be rolled through without too much thought, concern, or general attention given to the things happening on screen. There's a word in the name that should mean something. If the bare minimum level of control manipulation and brain power to kill a random world mob isn't enough to beat the expert dungeon: we're getting somewhere in terms of making expert dungeons what they should be. MSQ dungeon difficulty is one thing, because everyone has to do them and they will gate you from the rest of the game. Expert dungeon difficulty is an entire different subject matter. Combining the subjects will, in all likelihood, destroy any capacity for two portions of the playerbase to see eye to eye on potential changes to difficulty and difficulty option variety.

It's honestly mislabelled, we used to get optional dungeons but now the newest dungeon gets added which pushes a dungeon out of the Expert Rolo. These are Story Dungeons that will get added to Expert, are we going to then still have this back and forth where players cannot continue? "But it's Expert." - It'll draw players away.

Another argument I keep seeing is that it bridges the gap between Extremes and that this is good for when players do end game content... thing is not everyone is wanting to pushing the end game content, for a long while now we've been used to Expert being casual too, if players suddenly cannot continue doing this content because it's getting harder they're actively getting less out of their subs, this will also push casuals away.

I agree that there should be more difficult content but it should be placed outside of Story/Expert and into things like Variants which promised this difficulty but ultimately didn't deliver. The various Primal Fights were called Hard Mode but they were easy, same with the Hard Mode Dungeons that were mostly just rehashes of the original Dungeons.

There is an obvious clash between players who want more challenge and those who are currently struggling, I'm seeing players who simply cannot adapt due to circumstances outside of the game and they're still being told to "Get Good." and it sucks because a lot of the feedback given by the casual crowd has been well written, they're trying to explain why this content is too difficult and they're being met with hostility.

[Ramiren]

I don't feel that the Elden Ring / Dark Souls comparison is apt for current dungeon difficulty...

That said, considering the few threads that have popped up I'm not going to ignore the complaints. Seeing as there are people who dislike the increased difficulty enough to consider unsubbing, and then there are people like me where if the game suddenly becomes easier than it currently is I might fall asleep and accidentally hit the unsub button myself... MSQ dungeons clearly need variants for both casual players and players desiring a more "expert" mode experience. Could even separate them out so only the normal variant appears in leveling queues, and the "expert" variant appears in another tier of queue (an expert difficulty dungeon only queue).

I kind of fail to see how the dungeon category called Expert should be entry level casual- i.e. something that can be rolled through without too much thought, concern, or general attention given to the things happening on screen...

Firstly, as a long time soulsborne player, I have to agree, anyone comparing these games doesn't know what they're talking about, there's literally nothing in FFXIV that comes remotely close to that kind of difficulty until you start getting into savage raiding, and even then the challenges are vastly different due to the nature of single player versus team based games.

The way I see it, the MSQ's and dungeons are the skill floor for this game, they determine who we want to be able to play. If you want a game that everyone can engage with, and you don't want to exclude anyone, SE needs to design these entry level activities so that they're engaging, but can be tackled by everyone, that includes people with disabilities, the very young and elderly who may lack reaction speed, the casuals who lack the time to practice, etc. There's a plethora of more challenging activities for players who find this more accessible content boring.

As for the dungeons being called Expert, I really don't think that's a valid argument, excluding the dungeons available at launch, every other expert dungeon has been mandatory for story progression. There'd be outrage if players were still stuck in Endwalker because they couldn't clear The Lunar Subterrane.

Personally, I enjoy the additional challenge, but I also feel like we're hitting a point now where people are going to start being skill checked out of the MSQ, and that's a price I'd rather not pay just to make my personal experience a little bit better.

[MrKusabi]

I have ZERO interest in playing Dark Souls or Elden Ring, but it feels like that's the direction the devs are pushing with these new dungeons.

I feel like calling the new dungeons Souls-like hard is a mite disingenuous, personally. They feel more like a return to Shadowbringers levels after the massive difficulty drop in Endwalker as far as I have found, and I am also an older gamer with vision and processing issues.

That being said...

Hell, I'd be happy if at least the NPC groups were altered to fit this, because right now, even the damn NPC's are struggling to keep up!

I cannot personally speak to the trust's skill level as I have not yet played them with trusts (I always go with real people first and level trusts later), I have wished that trust NPCs were capable of rezzing like players. I feel like that would be a great boon to players struggling with mechanics due to processing issues, age, or disability. So rather than add a completely different difficulty level, giving NPCs who would have the ability to rez due to their class (Urianger, Alphinaud, Alisaie, ...) that ability would allow for said players to make it though dungeons a bit easier, especially if the devs keep planning to dedicate so much time to ensuring the trusts are available throughout everything MSQ.

[Raziek91]

Difficulty in this expac has been fantastic. I want to see more of the same, or even harder dungeons. It's about time we treated players like they should know how mechanics work.

[MrKusabi]

Difficulty in this expac has been fantastic. I want to see more of the same, or even harder dungeons.

I certainly don't disagree! Though I found the story rather lackluster this particular expansion, I've quite loved the dungeons and trials myself. Though I advocated for easier trusts above, I'd relish harder dungeons in general.

[Besame]

Lady of 75 here, 27 mmo yrs under her belt with over 3k hrs in this game. This will be my last full xpac, become too difficult with the ol arthritis. This was just too much for me this round and although I still love The Hunts, people using mods have ruined that for me.

[Lenarr]

Lady of 75 here, 27 mmo yrs under her belt with over 3k hrs in this game. This will be my last full xpac, become too difficult with the old arthritis. This was just too much for me this round and although I still love The Hunts, people using mods have ruined that for me.

There's clearly a lot of younger players who don't care about the older people trying to enjoy the game (just git gud!). I'm the same age as you, I've been playing FFXIV since 2013 (and other mmo's for years before that), and I did make it through the Dawntrail msq, but I can't say all the dungeons and last trial were exactly enjoyable... I fail to understand why a "story" mode difficulty option is such a bad thing...I know...just git gud, lol... It's not like a lot of us that have issues are going to be raiding or doing the more difficult content and thus dragging other people down. I'm just happy to finish the basic required dungeons and trials once and never do them again. I still find plenty to enjoy in the game without that, but you MUST finish the msq to unlock the different areas and vendors.

[Conando]

I mean I'm 35 and I'm still doing alright, and according to people in the internet these days I may as well be a corpse.

[Estguard]

Yea I agree. DT's ramp is twice too high. But who cares about the casuals wanting to finish the FORCED MSQ. I think its about time they either allow us to skip all of msq and enjoy the zones and crafters and gatherers. Or make it so they have difficulty tiers in this game. MSQ being ALWAYS VERY easy. Then you UNLOCK very hard duties into experts. EW showed horrible duties and it only got a million times worse.