Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ dungeon difficulty

[Zed6201]

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[Karshan]

ok social anxiety, etc etc.

It takes 150 hours or even more to get to that point of the story. You are level 100. 1.0.0. Start acting like it.

If you're being griefed unjustly for failing, do not hesitate to report : the GM usually do not take lightly rude people.
If not, seems the pressure is essentially coming from yourself. Dying is ok. Not everything has to be a walk in the park when you are level 100. It's ok to die in expert dungeons (for once, the name has some meaning to it apparently, although I didn't really feel it)

[jdtuggey]

Personally I hope this content gets nerfed, I hope it becomes more accessible to more players because if they double down on the difficulty you'll be seeing a lot more casuals drop the game over time.

What if they do, and then it's mid-level casuals like me that find nothing anymore in the game ? People that have subscribed since ARR that are comfortable with the game that found endwalker's content too predictable, easy and boring.
Cause it's how I felt with it ? People like this see this from their own perspectives only, and I think that's sad ? They're here being like "we're gonna leave if this goes on", well yeah, but what if that other camp will leave if endwalker style content goes on ? What if that second block is much, much bigger than people who think dawntrail is too harsh ? Have to empathize with all sides, then it starts making much more sense.

Before Shadowbringers, game was pretty hard, there was a lot more mechanics, meaningful threat management, TP management, the dungeons weren't necessarily harder, but they left less space for mistakes ? Healers actually had to heal, etc..
In Shadowbringers, they simplified the player character mechanics, but it felt like the fights were more dynamic and well produced, the content still got a little stale towards the end of it.
In Endwalker, they gave up these more dynamic fights, so we found ourselves with simplified character mechanics, and fights that are more predictable and slower paced.
At that point, like, there's very little engagement remaining for someone like me ? I've been giving money to square for 10 years over this game, and they've gradually made it "not for me" anymore, to appease people that struggled with the game.
In endwalker, people like me started telling the team "hey, something is wrong with the game", and even yoshi agreed, so they're reversing the trend, they worded it something like "re-adding tension to the gameplay" in interviews.
Now, people who liked the difficulty of endwalker feel left behind.

From the dev team's perspective, they can't please everyone. They pulled the lower engagement content further towards the casual side, which left a gap between experts and savage, where many, many casuals are. The content wasn't engaging for someone like me in endwalker. And like, the game used to be up to shadowbringers. Players at the lower end of the casual spectrum seem to feel they've been slighted here, but how about us at the higher end of the casual spectrum that have been slighted for the entire last expansion cycle ? :P

[Kazeshindo]

As someone who hates dungeons and raids with a passion, I have just decided I don't care anymore how the MSQ ends for now. I'll go do what I really love in this game. I don't want to waste my weekends on doing the same stupid stuff over and over, knowing what I should do but not being able to and still being forced to do it.

If this is how you feel, then you do you, but, as someone who helps people thru content that is much harder than MSQ Dungeons, you really could *just ask* someone you know, or someone from your FC, for help finishing MSQ.

[Kazeshindo]

No. This game is for everyone, including those with social anxiety. It is up to other players to be kind and supportive because that's what decent people do. We lift each other up, we don't tell them to get lost if they struggle.

You could not be MORE wrong about this. If someone approaches you and says, "hey, I'm struggling with X, do you think you could help me, please?" Then, yes, absolutely, be a supportive individual and help. But if that same individual is unable to approach anyone and ask for help, which is exactly what crippling social anxiety prevents people from doing, yet can muster up the courage to cry on a forum that the game is too tough, no, they don't "deserve" to keep playing this game.

By and large, gaming is very similar to sports, and not everyone is cut out for every sport, just like how not everyone is cut out for every game contrary to what your statement suggests. Not everyone is equipped with the necessary tools and/or skill set to play every kind of game, just like how a basketball player does not have the tools and skill set to play football. The DIFFERENCE between video games and sports, especially a video game like XIV, is that the ability to be good doesn't boil down to the typical 40/60 of talent and effort like sports does. Literally everything in this game can be taught, can be learned and can be completed by anyone, barring special, extraordinary circumstances. However, this game does not teach us everything about itself, and if someone is struggling, no one will know unless they speak up. Again, the crippling social anxiety prevents this, and thus, I say again, either the poster of my original reply needs to get over their anxiety and learn to deal with it or stop playing because this game is not for them.

[Saraide]

You could not be MORE wrong about this. If someone approaches you and says, "hey, I'm struggling with X, do you think you could help me, please?" Then, yes, absolutely, be a supportive individual and help. But if that same individual is unable to approach anyone and ask for help, which is exactly what crippling social anxiety prevents people from doing, yet can muster up the courage to cry on a forum that the game is too tough, no, they don't "deserve" to keep playing this game.

This actually highly confuses me. We have people who are too afraid of doing even dungeons in DF out of fear that 3 other people will judge them but have no problem posting about it to a forum where potentially hundreds of people will judge them instead. I guess it just doesnt make logical sense.

[Jinglypockets]

This actually highly confuses me. We have people who are too afraid of doing even dungeons in DF out of fear that 3 other people will judge them but have no problem posting about it to a forum where potentially hundreds of people will judge them instead. I guess it just doesnt make logical sense.

Eh, learning and struggling in front of other people in a way that makes you feel like they're frustrated with you for wasting their time (ps: Learning new content is what the DF is for, so you could never be wasting anyone's time as long as you're trying) isn't quite the same as writing a forum post explaining how those struggles make you feel.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Personally I hope this content gets nerfed, I hope it becomes more accessible to more players because if they double down on the difficulty you'll be seeing a lot more casuals drop the game over time.

I'm sorry but the people who are struggling is a very small number due to X personal problems and most likely less than the percentage of elite raiders. This shows on the forum with how many support the nerfs and I dont know about others, but I have done quite a few roulettes and not seen any failed runs. Have there been wipes sure, has runs took longer than 20mins sure but they have still been cleared.

I guess you didn't read the part where I talked about a change in Trusts that would help me. Few people, myself included. are wanting to change existing content, just a small change here and there that will not affect the rest. You just want to see what you would like wrttten so you can squack lol. So toxic. I repeat, it is none of the forums biz what my medical needs are. You are insinuating and insulting me.

I was one who agreed that trusts could be a way of helping people who are struggling via echo etc. But like I said earlier I can't see how that wont come with a damaging effect on the DF, because then regardless if they're struggling or not players will take the faster option. So the only way round that is less exp and tome rewards if completing solo.

[jdtuggey]

I guess you didn't read the part where I talked about a change in Trusts that would help me. Few people, myself included. are wanting to change existing content, just a small change here and there that will not affect the rest. You just want to see what you would like wrttten so you can squack lol. So toxic. I repeat, it is none of the forums biz what my medical needs are. You are insinuating and insulting me.

I have a problem with this, like, sure you're allowed to express your opinion regardless of your condition, but people are allowed to disagree with you nonetheless. :P
I don't think they had any ill intention, I think they just misread it as you having a condition, I also did at first. Also you're not helping by being super reactive and immediately spitting vitriol. x_x

I see a problem with making trusts too easy too, it will create a barrier between trusts and playing with other players, which might not affect you, but would create problems for a lot of new players.
The way trusts are built too, like, you can make several mistakes, but you're sure that you know the mechanics enough to get by in the fight with players once you come out the other end.
Considering the amount of players, like, any change they make will have unforeseen consequences like that, no matter how innocuous it is, so I'd err on the cautious side if it was my decision. So many variables and different players to consider. x_x
Like, not necessarily disagreeing, just exposing that it might seem like it has no consequences to you, but you can't really foresee that, I'm sorry.
Feels obvious that catering more and more to the lower end of players (reducing the difficulty and complexity of classes, content and mechanics over time) would leave players in the middle of the spectrum in the dust, for example, but they didn't foresee this and overdid it. (According to Yoshi P himself)

And I mean, obvious comment that it's a mmo primarily, sure they want solo players to be able to experience a good chunk of the game, but their focus is still multiplayer content, especially with Dawntrail.
Makes sense that they would make bridging the gap between playing solo and with players as frictionless as possible.

In a more general sense, it's also totally legit to realize it's not what you're looking for, and seek experiences that better match what you actually are looking for.
I don't believe any game has to be all inclusive ? It's honorable to take small steps on the dev's side and I applaud that, but it's also honorable to realize your limitations and let others who don't have them have their content.
There's games I absolutely can't play because I am prone to gambling addiction, everything that is gacha and such is completely off the table. I don't ask for the removal of this system in Honkai, I just don't play it lol. I'd really like to, tho. :P

[Jaxtaro]

If this is how you feel, then you do you, but, as someone who helps people thru content that is much harder than MSQ Dungeons, you really could *just ask* someone you know, or someone from your FC, for help finishing MSQ.

Let's be fair...the abuse and cruelty that has been infecting these threads are representative of people who they get grouped with using the daily roulettes. There is a persistent myth that people are helpful and glad to assume a mentor's role, but that's only true for a subsection of people. The real level of tolerance for incompetence is much lower than the stories we like to tell ourselves.

I'll never forget in the first week of DT, I did a roulette and got a Tower of Zot duty while playing my machinist. There was, like every Zot roulette in the first week of DT, a pictomancer and a really bad sage who though he was way better than he was, told the tank to W2W, and was surprised that the tank died while not healing. The pictomancer was ganking aggro on every pull and blaming the tank, even though we all later learned that it was a problem that merited a fix on tank aggro, so the two actually decided that a votekick was the answer. I declined and they both then bailed. I never told the tank because it would have been cruel, and no one needs that kind of ghosts the next time they queue, but I don't buy the "just ask, everyone's glad to help" line any more.

Is that representative of everyone? Of course not, there are truly helpful people who are willing to go out of their way to help, but there are also toxic sludgepools who have been representing themselves on these threads and on Reddit spectacularly who are one of the reasons why people cringe about stressful content.