Dawntrail Character Motivation [Ending Spoilers]

[Ellariel]

Early on when I began Zone 5, on meeting Sphene I was like "Okay. If she survives this story, I'll probably consider this to be second only to Endwalker. However, if she doesn't then that'll take significant enjoyment out of it."

And though the glowy crown has its own implications(we know it's a Regulator, it's stated as much when our characters are asked if they're wearing a subtle regulator like Sphene's crown) as to a potential return.

They instead opted for a retread of Amaurot but not as well-written. They should've deviated. They should've defied the formula. On that singular detail, they should've gone - No, y'know what, we can change things, we don't have to go through the same old rigamarole and fall prey to the same pitfalls. We can improve things, we can in fact find a better path than the same literary reference retread. I thought that was the whole point of the storyline leading up to Zone 4. Everywhere we go, we learn about a new culture and integrate it and improve things, like with the Mamool Ja.

So I'm a bit conflicted. Because yes, culturally the whole shtick is putting Heaven to the sword. We are, in all things, a champion of transience. We believe in the impermanence of things and how that impermanence keeps the world healthy and fundamentally alive, filled constantly with the new and the novel, with renewal and good. Yes, we would absolutely help the Endless let go, and shut down Living Memory. But you know we'd save Sphene too somehow. Maybe talk-no-jutsu, maybe through some hard-won and hard-earned miracle. But we'd figure something out. She deserves a chance to learn to love transience too. To be with a people that now can die. To accept the world as it is, full of sorrow and suffering and loss, and to find the beauty and the love in it.

In that sense, we've kinda lost a majority of the Solution 9's icons. It speaks of us not really doing much with the place in future, which is a waste of potential.

I also really don't like "A Child Shall Lead Them" tropes when it isn't leaning fantasy - like a religious organization or something. It isn't really appropriate for a cyberpunk city, I feel. Like how is Wuk Lamat at all competent in leading a hypertech city(Note that she was named regent, not Koana who has experience with tech)? Gulool Ja feels a bit inauthentic and on the nose as a leader. He was excellent as ward to Otis, though.
[continued]

[Ellariel]

Anyway. Up to halfway through zone 4, it was really good. No notes. Absolutely top notch and exactly the kinda exploration I bargained for. Up to and including S9 things went up to 11. Living Memory was phenomenal. But the ending feels like a retread, especially of Amaurot and Emet-Selch. "I have to fight for my people." - We've met Emet before. I haven't forgotten how much I empathized with him, I haven't forgotten how desperately he clung to something he refused to lose, even on point of death, and I'd have probably done the exact same if I were him - how could I conscience anything else? But that had been so well done... And Sphene's arc feels not quite like it hits home.

I hope they use the glowy crown to imply she'll be back. It'd go a ways to recontextualizing and redeeming things a bit. But we'll see.

Now, that all said. Musicwise? Incredible. Dungeons? Fantastic. Gameplay? Excellent blend of familiar and new. Absolutely an incredible time of it. Visuals? UTTERLY BREATHTAKING. I cannot begin to express how brilliant some of the zones were. From the solitude of Urqopacha to the crowded bioluminescent jungles deep in Yak Tel, I am enthralled with what they've done. Character and voicework is also top notch. It was a bit... interesting how they put Wuk Lamat front and center for the final trial but she's the real protagonist, it makes sense.

But I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me, actively.

We shut down the sectors of Living Memory specifically to try to convince Sphene to stop. Like, that was the plan. It was to be able to tell her, "You can stop fighting now. The Endless are all gone."

Because the Queen of Reason would have no reason to fight if the Endless all moved on.

It wasn't even acknowledged when her whole motive for fighting us and eating the aether of our world is for her people. This explicitly does not compute. It feels like the storytellers forgot her motivation.

I was waiting for even a single line of dialogue acknowledging the Endless being shut down - like, even a throwaway "That you erased those is irrelevant, so long as a single one of them remains, I will continue to fight for that last soul." and you know it would've hit hard - but nada.

Or like - Even that moment Sphene regenerates herself partially. All she had to say was "This isn't what I want--help me."
Now you're saving someone who jumped off the bridge. And is in freefall.

I don't know if it's time or money that they ran out of for the final stretch.
But they ran out of something. Maybe they overscoped and flubbed the ending. I don't know.
[c]

[Ellariel]

All told, the tone is one of digital genocide and it doesn't sit well with me. It's bittersweet at best, a dark morally ambiguous piece with jarring tonal whiplash where the final cutscene has its cuts to happy music blaring and children running and everyone smiling, and it feels like it's lacking in an understanding of the consequences of its own story.

Literally right off killing off a digital society and then assassinating the queen of it who we liked before she could do something similar to us, and then the happy music IMMEDIATELY and 'We won!!!' cutscene.

I don't know what happened there. But I really hope they redeem this in patch content. Have Sphene's regulator bring her back in a random body, just like before, have Solution 9 settle into something better just like Eulmore or the like, this is still completely salvageable. I've just never seen an ending fail and flub the landing before. Also please, please, please don't make Sphene the boss of 7.3, like Nidhogg and Elidibus. Break the mold for once. Play that 'Things CAN improve if we work together' card.

I'm usually excited to watch people's reactions to the new expansion - especially the ending. But this time... I don't know. I'm conflicted. I'm sorry if posting like this is against the rules. The character limit's only 3000 and I'm awfully verbose. Thank you kindly for getting this far.

[Turtledeluxe]

It's not a retread of SHB. Dawntrail has flaws but I'm not sure fan of this parroted word. It betrays a lack of understanding of what happened in either expansion beyond "I'm a villain who likes my former populace".

Similarly, it's not a genocide. I see this is going to be yet another one of those threads. I'm all for real criticism but...no thanks.

[Lousis]

Would you believe had DT been rewritten, that Bakool Ja Ja would be better fit as protagonist for DT? Mostly on how much he steals the show generally. No lies that I like Wuk Lamat, just that Bakool Ja Ja was alot more memorable generally.

[Karkarov]

Digital genocide? Tell me, when you replace your current PC or Phone do you cry and apologize to the old one for killing it before you power it off for the last time? You turn off a server running some really impressive ai's that run at the cost of actual peoples lives. You don't "genocide" anything, in fact your actions prevent one. The only parity to be drawn with old content if there is any at all would be living memory to ultima thule because they are opposites.

Thule - a zone that at first silent and appears dead but an external force is just keeping it that way there is actually life and sound there. Living Memory - a zone that is full of life an music but actually it only looks that way, it is actually dead and totally silent and external force is just making it seem alive.

[Ellariel]

The Amaurotines weren't living people either in the context of ShB. They too were to be brought back at the cost of everyone's lives the same way the Endless were to be sustained.

The parallel of continuing the existence of one's beloved people even at the cost of those who are alive. The idea is the same save that we didn't personally go around erasing every shade. Why not just let them run their course, let them run out of aether and fade away the same way reconstructed Amaurot may fade.

Anyhow I loved Wuk Lamat. And I loved Bakool Ja Ja. I found her to be adorable and great and him to be a phenomenally compelling character especially with regards to the reveal. The skill in writing it must have taken to effect an authentic character arc for Bakool Ja Ja was incredible. There isn't a blanket forgiveness, it's still a commitment to do better, to improve. There's so much thought, care and effort put into making it feel right.

I would have started a rewrite by deciding on what Zoraal Ja's problem is and therefore what is arc must be. I like the idea that he wants war for the wrong reasons. Zoraal Ja fundamentally believes differences always lead to conflict, whereas Wuk Lamat fundamentally believes differences always lead to understanding. He needs to be the mightiest and the strongest because he believes the only reason the people of Tural respect his father is because they respect his strength.

I love that he dismisses the Garlean empire. I love that he's suspicious of outsiders and I'd openly have him suspicious of Eorzean colonial impulses. When Zoraal Ja loses to his father's shade(and Wuk Lamat wins)he is absolutely devastated. His secret shame-that he was born with one head-brings out a bitter insecurity. He does not show up at the coronation as a way to spurn his sister, but instead does something desperate, making a Deal with the Devil by going into the Golden City with a retinue of Mamool Ja extremists/separatists(thus explaining his kid).

They take over, Zoraal Ja forces Sphene into a position of obedience(because again he believes power is the only way to rule). 30 years of listening to the whispers of a machine have tainted his humanity. Now it's believable that he wants peace by taking over the world. He attacks Tulliyolal to prove his sister is incapable of defending her people, then retreats back into his Golden City.

Sphene is coerced into fighting us to save her people, but you and Erenville and Krile save her from her worst self by showing her that remembering the lost and building on their legacy is how you save them.

As a result Zoraal Ja makes good on his threat and devours the lives of nearly every Eternal. Now Wuk Lamat is faced with an impossible choice: will she kill her own brother?

In the final raid we don't go through Alexandria. We go through Zoraal Ja's psyche. And we realize there is a tiny part of him that still just wants to be loved. But we have to tear through the machine to get to him.

[PyurBlue]

Digital genocide? Tell me, when you replace your current PC or Phone do you cry and apologize to the old one for killing it before you power it off for the last time? You turn off a server running some really impressive ai's that run at the cost of actual peoples lives.

The story tries to make us believe that they aren't people, and if you go by what is said then that is the case. However when the endless were explained in the story I did pause for a minute to consider if they could be so easily dismissed as fakes. Getting to a conclusive answer probably isn't possible since we're dealing with loose magic, but since these replica beings do have souls I don't think they're that far removed from "real" people. If this idea was incorporated into the story and you had to make a decision that could have been interesting, though that definitely wasn't the intention here.

[octapusxft]

I really hope that they will salvage Sphene and her future in a future patch. I really liked her and it was really painful for me to have to end her in spite of everything indicating that she cannot her her way since all the military Alexandria had easily destroyed by when the Eorzeans were prepared.

All the things we did in Living memory to prevent the battle were futile in the end.

As the OP said, the final boss should have been Zoraal Ja with Sphene being someone someone that we just need to free and not destroy.

Once again, I hope we get Sphene back in some capacity. I wanted us to show her The Source, the First and the Thirteenth.

[Kes13a]

The Amaurotines weren't living people either in the context of ShB. They too were to be brought back at the cost of everyone's lives the same way the Endless were to be sustained.

The parallel of continuing the existence of one's beloved people even at the cost of those who are alive. The idea is the same save that we didn't personally go around erasing every shade. Why not just let them run their course, let them run out of aether and fade away the same way reconstructed Amaurot may fade.

I am afraid you misunderstood what the "rejoining" was meant to accomplish.

the Ascians were going to bring the people back to life. not as copies, not as digital facsimilies... as real breathing living people.

the recreations in Living Memory.. were just memories. the entire point of conquering everyone was to get their aether to power the continued existence of the memories of dead people.

the Endless were dead already and would continue to be dead... Emet reconstructed Amaurot for comfort, but the "people" there were just illusions he constructed of the real people he wanted to bring back. he wasnt bringing the things in the reconstruction back, he wanted Zodiark to save his people, not the reconstructions