Thread: [Feedback] Another Post about Dawntrail MSQ

Another "I made a forum account just to talk about this" user here. Reading the ongoing discourse about DT has been interesting, validating and a little entertaining if I'm being honest, and I wanted to throw my 2 cents in. It goes without saying this will contain spoilers for the whole of the MSQ.

First: I wouldn't call myself a DT hater. I wanted to leave my thoughts to stew a bit after finishing, because I had a feeling there was a bit of a Honeymoon Period going on in my brain, but after almost a week of being done with MSQ I'd probably still give it a 7/10. Call me easy to please, but I got a lot of enjoyment out of the story even with its failings. Sure there are problems, and quite a few of them too, but I still came out looking forward to seeing where they will go next with the plot and I enjoyed the worldbuilding of Tural. I don’t think it’s as good as Shadowbringers or Endwalker, but it’s still enjoyable enough that I would play through it again. The dungeons and trials are fun, the zones were pretty (lower part of Yak T’el * chef’s kiss *) and the music was great too.

Now for the issues.

Story & Worldbuilding
DT is definitely not the worst thing I have ever played in my entire life, like I've seen some people saying. I can however see how the first half of the story could get very, very boring if you don't feel invested in the feel of your WoL being relegated to side character status. I'll get to Wuk Lamat in a bit more detail later, but this being "her story" didn't necessarily bother me that much, but I don't think it was executed as well as it could be. Constantly feeling like your WoL had next to no reason to be involved in what was happening is not good, and I feel like if you don't see your character as the type to fit into the (somewhat limited) dialogue choices you are given, then there is absolutely no way you're going to get satisfaction from this.

I personally could get behind not being the main character- I was a Stormblood enjoyer when I did it for the first time and because I didn't play it on release (took a break from the game from post-HW to mid post-ShB), I had no idea about how divisive it was to the community. I played it, enjoyed it, and then later found out how many people absolutely despised it. But in comparison to Stormblood, DT unfortunately suffers from not giving much of an overarching threat/villain to the story until way too late into the game. I felt from the near get-go that Bakool Ja Ja wasn't going to be the "real" villain- honestly I thought they were going to kill him off when they inevitably plot twisted into showing the real threat, but not showing said real threat until like 80% through the game really hurt. In Stormblood, Zenos is shown very early on and is a recurring figure throughout. There are other threats established and even though Lyse is the "main character" the threats also threaten you personally. The villains in DT only ever seem to care about Wuk Lamat, up until the very last trial when you are recognised as the "real threat". But since you have next to no connection to this person its a bit empty.

Imagine if Zenos was introduced in the second to last area, only spoke to Lyse, and then decided you were his target in the final dungeon when you fight him. Sphene as a villain has next to no connection to you, she is sus from the get go but you have no option to tell Wuk Lamat she shouldn't be trusting her (again, another point for later) even when your WoL is shown to be giving Sphene the side eye at multiple points in cutscenes. It's frustrating. I'm not sure what I was meant to feel towards her, compassion? Sympathy? All I got was a random woman who appears, has an army that is literally stealing the souls from the people they gunned down when they attacked the city (which Krille sees and then never mentions to anyone btw) and then we have to be friends with her...? At least the final fight against her was cool.

I feel like the worldbuilding in the first 4 zones carried my enjoyment of the story, and then my curiosity/hope for more character development carried me through the last 2. I've played maybe a few hours of FF9 so I recognised some of the references, but it wasn't enough to make me that invested in Alexandria, I just kind of accepted that it was happening and moved on because what I actually wanted (meeting a settlement of Shetona Viera and learning about that culture) was obviously not going to happen.

Side quests seem to be the way to go for getting a tiny bit more of the lore info I wanted. I'm not usually a Yellow Quest completer, but I decided to do them for exp when leveling Picto, just for a change, starting with the ongoing questlines from aether current quests but eventually I just started clearing the map of everything. The role quests are also very good so far (highly recommend the miner/botany questline), but it feels bittersweet that I'm getting this enjoyment from the side content and then thinking "huh if I never did this yellow quest I wouldn't have known anything about this plot point that sounds like it might be important to later story/content".

Characters
Moving on to character writing, I think this is where my main bugbears with DT are. As much as I enjoyed playing it, the parts that made me feel the most frustrated were mostly related to not getting full satisfaction from character development. I feel like most characters got to the end of their story and had said development, but the path to get there was either rushed, a bit lacklustre or in some parts leaving me feeling like I had to do all the mental arithmetic to stitch the story together because the game just refused to touch on the points I felt were important. Note: I play with JP voices, and had no real problems with the voice acting.

Wuk Lamat
I'll get this out of the way first because I don't want this post to turn into another rant on how much she ruined everything. As a character I like Wuk Lamat. The issue is I practically became her conjoined twin. There was this slight frustration throughout where I wanted to spend time with other characters but was forced to pretty much always be with her if the group split up. Everyone knows this, I think most people hated it, but I felt I could just about cope with it until there was one specific quest that made me actually shout at my screen in frustration at being made to go off with her once again. In Heritage Found, I think just before dungeon and the Everkeep trail, Erenville says he wants to talk to you about something, but decides it can wait because dealing with Wuk Lamat's war mongering brother is more important. After all that kicks off and you return to The Backrooms, you are then forced to go back to the Capital and follow Wuk Lamat around with mini Ja and Koana as she just rehashes all the story points up until now (that you, the WoL, was there for and has no need for an explanation of) and you barely even have any comments to contribute (I don't even remember if we say anything, I'm saying "barely anything" to be generous). This was honestly the final straw for me and made me start thinking she was actually hogging screen time. You never follow up on what Erenville wanted to say to you, it's just memory holed I guess, and you are following these guys around doing absolutely nothing when you could be contributing to the group back in Solution 9 who are trying to sort out a solution to the now discovered World Ending Threat. It was what made me start looking back at previous story thinking longingly about how "i really wish I got to do x instead of going with Wuk Lamat again". She took away a lot of time that could have been spent with literally anyone else- I mean the obvious casualties are Erenville and Krille, but even spending just a bit more time with any of the scions would have made them feel like less of an afterthought. I almost forgot Alphinaud and Alisaie were traveling with us at one point, and if I hadn't done a lot of the dungeons with duty support that probably would have felt even more apparent.

I don't have a massive problem with her personality and constant love for peace and understanding, though I do wish that her naivety was punished a bit more and she didn't just suddenly gain the confidence to do everything and anything after 1 pep talk from the squad saying "you need to rely on others :)". I really hope something in a future patch makes it hit home to her that you can't fix everything with the power of friendship- because her Dad being murdered in front of her didn't seem to do that. Also, considering Wuk Lamat seems to consider Erenville a very close/important friend, she doesn't really ever show it (in DT at least). I will give Erenville his own section, because the issues I had with how they handled his story are probably what got me down the rabbit(lol) hole that was critiquing this expansion, but I was really specifically disappointed about how it felt there was next to nothing mentioned about their friendship and Wuk Lamat is so busy getting to know the local AI generated residents of the last area that she forgets to show a shred of care for her friend who is dealing with not only the sudden, unexplained death of his mother but also the complete loss of his village?? She doesn't even console him in the final area before he has to delete his mother, it was like fucking whiplash seeing how caring she could be to everyone around the continent, even the "people" in Living Memory that we are told repeatedly aren't even real, but doesn't even try to be there for Erenville who, in her own words from 6.55, is someone who she's been "thick as thieves with since they were kids". She's more concerned about Sphene's thoughts and feelings than someone she's seemingly known for like 20 years?? Knowing the game has many really well written characters then seeing inconsistencies like this is really jarring and disappointing.

Erenville (& Cahcuia)
I didn't expect to come out of DT with this guy being my favourite character in the series, sure I liked him enough in Endwalker but he was just a side character that I didn't expect to see again. But apparently YoshiP liked him a lot, and now I guess I'm on the same team. Following on slightly from what I wrote about Wuk Lamat, when the two appeared in 6.55 I really loved the dynamic between them and was looking forward to learning a bit more about their relationship/history come the expansion. That didn't happen, and I'm very disappointed.

Honestly, that statement could apply to how I feel about a lot of Erenville's storyline. There were so many times where I felt there was an opportunity to give him a chance to talk about himself but then they just... didn't happen. It started to feel like a bit of a running joke where he would open his mouth to say something personal and then he'd get cut off by something. Now, maybe this was intended to make him seem mysterious and that didn't want to talk about himself to people. This might have been true, but how do we know this when barely anyone ever asks him anything. The quest summaries in the journal felt like they were gaslighting me at points where it says he’s reserved and not giving away personal information, when no one ever even asks 90% of the time. Most of the times where people do ask him something (Alphinaud on the boat in the beginning for example), he starts to talk about it pretty casually, but then gets cut off before he can finish what he was saying and then it's never followed up on again.

I think the writers did well in some parts, but then didn't really go in and capitalise on it, leaving me to come to my own conclusions and then wondering "was that intentional?" or if I just created a headcanon. For example, I started getting the impression Erenville had some feeling of resentment towards his mother and I think that was semi-confirmed in the final area, but it's not really explicitly said at any other point than when, just before we turn off the terminal in the last area, Erenville snaps at her saying something along the lines of that she is "making all the decisions and then leaving again". In sheriff town, Iyaate tells you that Cahcuia regularly went off exploring, leaving Erenville behind, and that he would cry and beg to be taken with her. She then tells him when he becomes a real explorer he can come with her and tasks him with finding the Golden City, which according to Wuk Lamat in 6.55 he was trying pretty hard at doing, but eventually he gives up assuming its a fairy tale or just some way to tell him to grow up and go see the world. Nice story telling, I like it. When you enter Solution 9 for the first time, Cahcuia asks him to tell her about you and your adventures together. Erenville makes a passing remark about finding the Golden City, Cahcuia is shocked and wants to know more, chasing after him. You’re practically invited to join in with that interaction, but no. Why, game, after all the build up to this moment do I have to go explore with Wuk Lamat instead of getting to see that interaction take place? I was waiting for them to bring it up again later but, again, that does not happen.

I was hoping there could have been more interactions between Erenville and Cahcuia before the literal last section of the last area of the game, but most of the time Cahcuia is around before then is to advance the plot of dealing with Zarool Ja. She is someone who is there to be part of Erenville's story and development, but she’s used as part of Wuk Lamat's instead. Why is it constantly shown that Cahcuia traveled around with Gulool Ja Ja (she even appears in the Echo flashback of ending the war between the Mamool Ja and Hrothgars in Yak Tel), but I get no opportunity to hear her talk about that except right before she's about to get deleted she says "wow that was so much fun even better than my travels with Gulool Ja Ja"? Did Erenville even know about her adventures? I assume so, since he wanted to go with her so badly, but he seemed shocked to see his mother's name on the stone remembering the heroes that defeated Valigarmanda (which no one asks him about even though he seemed to read it aloud audibly). I just feel like there were so many missed opportunities for moments characters could have shared together that would have helped make everything feel more fleshed out. I was hoping to finally see them reconnect since Erenville only was going back to Tural in the first place to visit home after 3 years away, and if she was just straight up dead after The Dome incident that would have been pretty emotional (honestly what I was expecting before entering the zone). But instead, she’s (kind of?) alive, and I’m left with all these unanswered questions that felt like they had ample opportunities to cover. At least sheriff land was fun while it lasted. Hopefully the hints at the future of the story from post credits (him looking into animal issues with the cats) actually leads to either main or side content.

Krille
Despite it being implied she was going to be an extremely important core character to the expansion, my girl really got shafted. I can complain about Erenville’s story all I like, but at least he had more than Krille got. The fact she found out about her real parents was great, but apart from that she didn’t get to do much at all. Even her earring didn’t work on the door without mini Ja using it. Considering her motivation to come with us was that she felt kind of useless during the final days, at least during that time she was acting as some kind of vessel for Hydaelyn to talk to us. I did like her echo showing Zoraal Ja’s emotions in a very foreboding way, was a nice touch, but maybe it would have been nice to have a few more instances of it- for example foreshadowing Bakool Ja Ja’s mental breakdown. I can only hope this is used as a set up to give her more of a place in the story going forward and they don’t just forget about her.

I could go on about more but I don’t want this to get much longer. The expansion’s writing as a whole had a lot of flaws for sure, and I think people are right to be voicing their complaints so CBU3 know they need to work on it in the future. Although Wuk Lamat is at the centre of a lot of these issues I don’t think it’s fair to dumb it down to just that. Even if she was pulled back from screen time I think the general plot had holes that still needed to be fixed. But is it the absolute worst thing I’ve ever played and the death of the game as a whole? No, far from it, and I will look forward to what they do next.

If they add a personal duty in 7.1 where we duel Wuk Lamat and we get to beat her senseless I will instantly change my score to 11/10 from 7/10 so far.

All jokes aside(not really) she really needs a reality check if for nothing else for narrative reasons.

Yeah, the lack of continuity, plot holes, obvious overlooking of important character traits, one dimensional conversations...The quality of the writing has been all over the place. All in all it feels quality control was lacking or I don't know honestly. First expansion I ever played where these things became glaringly obvious.

Yet, just as you said at the end of the day I still like the expansion so far and outside of the MSQ I actually have a lot more positive stuff to say about it.

Originally Posted by Verathel

If they add a personal duty in 7.1 where we duel Wuk Lamat and we get to beat her senseless I will instantly change my score to 11/10 from 7/10 so far.

All jokes aside(not really) she really needs a reality check if for nothing else for narrative reasons.

That made me chuckle.

I do feel like if most of my issues with character writing could be explained by "i wish i didnt have to spent all this time with Wuk Lamat" its a bad sign, but i can't hate her completely. She was enjoyable at times, just... everything in moderation? Especially when I only met you 5 minutes ago and now you're trying to be my best friend.

Also the interruption in the final trial alone wasn't my issue, it was more the fact even after Sphene made it very clear she is not a good person here, Wuk Lamat is still trying to "understand" her and be besties with her. If she actually changed her mind on her maybe i would have celebrated the interruption as some much needed character development lol

Originally Posted by aTanpopo

That made me chuckle.

I do feel like if most of my issues with character writing could be explained by "i wish i didnt have to spent all this time with Wuk Lamat" its a bad sign, but i can't hate her completely. She was enjoyable at times, just... everything in moderation? Especially when I only met you 5 minutes ago and now you're trying to be my best friend.

Also the interruption in the final trial alone wasn't my issue, it was more the fact even after Sphene made it very clear she is not a good person here, Wuk Lamat is still trying to "understand" her and be besties with her. If she actually changed her mind on her maybe i would have celebrated the interruption as some much needed character development lol

Desperately needed and partially to add she's now the co-ruler of an entire freaking continent. Narratively wise if she met the leaders of Eorzea and other places....It would be ridiculous.

I'll just harp with you on the Wuk Lamat issue. She is ubiquitous. She is front and center this entire expansion and I was fine with it. I understood we were sort of mentoring her and raising her up and I was on board with that. I got that she was supposed to be young, naive and insecure. All good. But in the last trial fight, the one where we could have gone full Warrior of Light and just shown that yes indeed, there is things only the WoL and his companions can accomplish... she comes in, shouts her nonsense and gives us HER buff. No, we don't get Brilliant Conviction or any other WoL-themed buff. We get a Wuk-themed buff. By that moment my feelings towards her instantly dipped into the negative, and far. They couldn't even give us that one tiny moment apart from her. She HAD to appear. She HAD to claim the victory. She HAD to keep yapping.

Overall I agree with the 7/10. Pacing issues, constant "talk to X NPCs" quests, constant "clench fist" emotes, constant Wuk Lamat. No character development. No character depth. Shallow philosophy. Shallow villains. This is mediocre start to finish.
The art and music teams did a stellar job, as usual. No complaints there.

Originally Posted by Amenara

I agree, I think Wuk shouldn't have taken center stage in both halves of the story. She made a lot of sense and I enjoyed her in the first half but I think the second half should have been entirely an Erenville and Krille story. It would be fine if she tagged along because of her brother but they should have left it at that instead of doing a complete rehash of the first half of the game showing Sphene as another leader who like Wuk cares about her people. I am probably on the minority but I think the first half was much better put together narratively than the second half. I was really interested in the premise of going on a trial to retrace Gulool Ja Ja's steps and to learn about the new area as well as all the new cultures. The second half just felt tacked on and didn't click with me.

I think the first half was better in that sense too. I enjoyed the second half up until The Dome appeared, then it started going a bit off the rails for me. I wondered if it was just because I couldn't get behind all the FF9 references (it felt a little shoehorned in) because I haven't played much of it, but if it was better written then that probably wouldn't have been a problem. The longer it went on, the more bitter I was feeling that the story points I wanted to see weren't happening.

Originally Posted by Aurumis

I think if you erase Wuk Lamat after the first half of the story, right after the Rite she steps back to help her people, and Erenville and Krile became the main MC with you, DT would have a solid 7/10 or 8/10 but as how it is, no. It's at most a 5/10 because the these 5 are dungeons, music and enviroment.
The writting is bad, but we could cope with it if it wasn't for Wuk Lamat. So yes, she is the main issue in the story. And yes, she had to step back in the last trial and don't intervene. And if she does, G'raha and Krile HAD to be there too to make sense.

G'raha is more powerful than Wuk Lamat, and Krile should have shine in battle as she wanted to do since the beginning.

Honestly I understand a 5/10. The only reasons I was bumping it up for me personally were that there were a couple of parts that made me cry, not just wet eyes but actual crying. Shadowbringers is still my favourite story but even that didn't make me cry. Endwalker I got a bit teary, but still i didn't need tissues. But in saying that, the only reason I did get that emotional in Dawntrail was because I felt for the characters involved- there were plenty of other parts I felt were meant to be emotionally impactful that didn't do anything for me at all. So it was kind of hit-or-miss on that front. And also a bonus point for the side content being pretty good so far, motivating me to level my other classes so I can do more role quests and find out what else there is to experience, and also getting me to do random yellow quest chains because I got interested in the lore of the areas.

I agree, I think Wuk shouldn't have taken center stage in both halves of the story. She made a lot of sense and I enjoyed her in the first half but I think the second half should have been entirely an Erenville and Krille story. It would be fine if she tagged along because of her brother but they should have left it at that instead of doing a complete rehash of the first half of the game showing Sphene as another leader who like Wuk cares about her people. I am probably on the minority but I think the first half was much better put together narratively than the second half. I was really interested in the premise of going on a trial to retrace Gulool Ja Ja's steps and to learn about the new area as well as all the new cultures. The second half just felt tacked on and didn't click with me.

The song "Smile" used in Dawntrail and what seems like the devs finding whatever excuse or moment to hamfist this highschool musical disney-esc song I'd almost wonder if Squenix was working on something kingdom-hearts/disney related at the time of development and decided to put their music talent to work since they already had them over.

Really well written post that conveys many great points of in both measured praise and criticism. I felt like you conveyed a lot of my own feelings towards Dawntrail even. To not just completely parrot your post, more Krile and Erenville are sorely needed in my eyes.