Viper is feels too busy because button erognomics is awful

[Atmaweapon510]

Keep in mind that I'm coming at this from the PoV of someone using an xbox controller, letting me hit 7 abilities out of 8 abilities with my Right thumb so I'm not even as bad as it could be if I was using a PS controller or keyboard.

TL;DR is that Twinblood and Twinfang should be consolidated into Serpent's Tail.


Viper right now has the least number of buttons out of any job, but the way the job is designed forces you into very restrictive button layouts or risk bloating your hotbar with multiple duplicate abilities.

Controller:

I'll give an example, in order to comfortably execute the Dreadwinder combo, you need 5 buttons, so say you have Dreadwinder on your D-pad in a position that you can hit with your index finger while piloting the analog stick or reach comfortably reach with your thumb, and then assign your 4 other buttons to face buttons in way that you can comfortably hit them in a clockwise or counterclockwise movement.
Then you come to the realization that you need Serpent's Tail and not Twinfang/Twinblood in order to perform your reawakening combo so this button layout doesn't work anymore.

In order to actually make your crosshotbar efficient while also allowing you to simultaneously use your analog stick and face buttons, you need your abilities on a different crossbar than your weaponskills so that you can access them from any of your weaponskills, which then opens up a can of worms as you're constantly pressing and releasing your trigger buttons to do ogcds which quickly causes more hand fatigue than other jobs.

Keyboard:

There's no way around it, Serpent's tail has to be bound to C and then the other two dance around it. Anything else and your thumb has to extend outside of a comfortable range to constantly hit your abilities. This is really annoying because it means you also need to reserve V and Spacebar for your other two if you want to avoid overtaxing your thumb.

Ironically, Viper is really, really easy to click through. You need to duplicate Serpent's tail 4 times, but you can basically draw a T block with your ST skills on one side and AoE skills on the other. Position your Serpent's tails in-between your Dreadwinder positionals so that you can basically draw zigzags for reawakening and then surround your Twinfang/Twinblood buttons with their combo skills. It's super comfy to go through and you can bind your utility abilities on easy to reach buttons if you need to.

Solution

Consolidate damaging ogcds into two skills at most, but optimally just 1. Being able consolidate them into 1 might be an oversimplification, but this allows you to feasibly do the a dreadwinder combo with just face buttons. At the very least, Serpent's tail needs to be consolidated with one of the Twin abilities so that Reawakening isn't a pain to plan around.

Edit: I was wrong about the oversimplification and I'm just gonna leave this up otherwise the replies wouldn't make sense. What I should have asked for is are the Twinfang/Twinblood also turning into Legacy ogcds which accomplishes the same goal.

[W00by]

I don't know that Viper's difficulty to play on controller is much higher than other jobs with lots of double weaves like Ninja or Dark Knight, though. Speaking as someone who plays on controller, I find Viper very easy and intuitive to map. And even if you find it unintuitive to start, Twinblood and Twinfang are always available at scripted, specific times -- after executing one of the Dreadwinder Coils or Uncoiled Fury, so in a way, muscle memory can carry you more than it can for other jobs, where oGCDs have their own cooldowns. Plenty of people have found successful hotbar setups on controller, so I'd prefer if it not receive rotational adjustments. Just me though.

[CaedemSanguis]

Im on controller and dont have any issue with viper

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

I'm on keyboard and have had no issues ever since I moved Steel/Dread Fang off 1-2 and let the Dreadwinder combo have that spot.

I do think proper keybinds is important to game feel but that's because we're playing an MMO, it's not unique to Viper at all. (I don't have an MMO mouse either)

[ValStormbreaker]

I'm on keyboard and have had no issues ever since I moved Steel/Dread Fang off 1-2 and let the Dreadwinder combo have that spot.

I do think proper keybinds is important to game feel but that's because we're playing an MMO, it's not unique to Viper at all. (I don't have an MMO mouse either)

1000%! Proper keybinds are critical when playing melee.

I come from a background of fighting games and action games, and that's the demographic melee DPS jobs are designed to cater to. I hotbar things on my controller so I just make quarter-circle or half-circle motions like motion inputs in fighting games, and it feels silky smooth!

It's always the ultra-passive healer mains raising issues like this because they're not so much "gamers" as they are looking to turn this into a visual novel experience with social features. OP is being a boon to that stereotype. They did the same thing over the past 6-7 years which butchered MNK continuously, leading to MNK becoming not only completely gutted but losing all of its fun rhythm. Viper is a consolidated return to Stormblood MNK in a tighter package, which is why it's so fun. But take note that OP did not post their hotbars as an example, likely knowing they'd be criticized for not having set them up properly.

Surprise surprise, they don't even have the job at max level! Therefore, they shouldn't even be talking. Typical entitled healer main behaviour.

[kashi11]

Maybe instead of saying to remove buttons from the job, you ask others for suggestions on how to efficienctly setup the hotbar.

Also the "risk bloating your hotbar with multiple duplicate abilities" argument I've rarely seen makes no sense to me.

You have the hotbar space available and it makes the job easier so .... Just do it?

That's definitely a personal problem if it bothers you to have duplicates, I would rather have my hotbar be full than empty.

[ValStormbreaker]

Maybe instead of saying to remove buttons from the job, you ask others for suggestions on how to efficienctly setup the hotbar.

Also the "risk bloating your hotbar with multiple duplicate abilities" argument I've rarely seen makes no sense to me.

You have the hotbar space available and it makes the job easier so .... Just do it?

That's definitely a personal problem if it bothers you to have duplicates, I would rather have my hotbar be full than empty.

Yeah literally the only complaints we are seeing from melee DPS mains about the hotbar is that there are too many open spots and we want more stuff to put in them. I mean, check out my W-Cross Hotbar pics in the previous posts! I have room for 3 mounts, teleport, return, all of the melee DPS role actions, and STILL have an empty spot. Back in the days of 4.4 MNK, both of those hotbars were filled to the brim with oGCDs that were not only mandatory to use, but felt good and rhythmic to push in the right order and made the tactile feel of the job super fun, like playing a musical instrument. I would hum a tune while I played and dance with my positionals, it was amazing!

Rest assured, I had to leave teleport and return on a different hotbar since they were non-essential for combat. Besides, I didn't even have room for them.

Viper could use a mitigation ability, and the PvP "snake scales" ability was suggested by another user. I think that's a good idea, and I could definitely put it in that empty spot! Could use a couple more oGCDs for double-weaving, too. I shouldn't have enough room for 3 mounts and still have open spots with nothing to put in there.

OP healer main's complaint is a literal skill issue, not a problem with the job.

[TespelieKosoix]

Keep in mind that I'm coming at this from the PoV of someone using an xbox controller, letting me hit 7 abilities out of 8 abilities with my Right thumb so I'm not even as bad as it could be if I was using a PS controller or keyboard.

Keyboard:

There's no way around it, Serpent's tail has to be bound to C and then the other two dance around it. Anything else and your thumb has to extend outside of a comfortable range to constantly hit your abilities. This is really annoying because it means you also need to reserve V and Spacebar for your other two if you want to avoid overtaxing your thumb.

Ironically, Viper is really, really easy to click through. You need to duplicate Serpent's tail 4 times, but you can basically draw a T block with your ST skills on one side and AoE skills on the other. Position your Serpent's tails in-between your Dreadwinder positionals so that you can basically draw zigzags for reawakening and then surround your Twinfang/Twinblood buttons with their combo skills. It's super comfy to go through and you can bind your utility abilities on easy to reach buttons if you need to.

I don't know why you're speaking on keyboard accessibility as a gamepad user, but keyboard has infinite possibility with shift/ctrl modifiers, and there's no reason to inflict an uncomfortable setup on yourself. My thumb is exclusively for targeting and ADHD jumping, for example, because I just don't want to tax it in the first place. It's true that Viper's unique structure doesn't line up binding-wise with the usual 123 combo job, but it has so few buttons that even a one-handed setup is a breeze to place.

[Taliriah]

New jobs always feel busy, especially when compared to old jobs that you're so used to that your brain unconsciously do most of the work.
I tried pictomancer, I found it busy. But that's because I only played it to level 81 and I need to think for a second before pressing each ability.

[Healliium]

I have been playing viper on controller and really haven’t had that much issue with it.