On the Removal of Positionals

[Lorika]

Hundred percent agree, we just have to keep trying. It's just frustrating, when after I make a post about how positionals:

1. enhance job feel and gameplay

2. require thoughtful planning and engaging movement

3. enhance encounter design and mechanical nuance

4. can almost always be hit if played properly, even with less skilled other players

and 5. involve unique planning around True North and the like,

people still call them pointless. They just don't read what I say, so it becomes discouraging quickly. But I won't give up!

No to everything.
They add nothing at all....

You seem to think that you are a majority, which isn't the case. The majority hate FFXIV positional.

Also, if FFXIV postional was so damn good, dozen of MO would have them which... isn't the case at all.
On the majority of MMO postional are situational.... Mostly used by Rogue/Thief/Assassin llike class (Backstab while being cloaked) or, they have mostly CC attached to them.

FFXIV Positional are just plainly bad, useless and not fun at all.... Seriously, what the point of doing back and forth just for a measly 40 or 60 potency? Where is the fun in that? and especially since ALL the DPS have true North, a skill that cancel those positional (so it's clear that SE is aware how bad this gameplay mechanic is, and how annoyg it is)
If i want "action" on a MMO i will go play BDO.... But on a Tab Targeted MMO, positional always been rare and, like i said, were always tied to Rogue/Thief/Assassin like class or situational CC.

I never encountered discussion about positional, like the hundred we have on FFXIV, on any other MMO.... So i think you should start to wonder why.

[Naomishtola]

It's hilarious to me how many people still complain about positionals when the dps loss of not hitting one isn't very noticable. Positionals have not only become less punishing over the years, but we also lost a lot of them. Some melee jobs barely even interact with positionals at all.
Instead of simply admitting that maybe the melee role isn't for everyone, people think that just because they can play 21 jobs on one char, that SE specifically needs to cater to them.
You hate positionals? That's fine, positional-less melee already exists: it's called tank.
Still want to play melee? Reaper has so little positionals that you might as well never run out of true northing them.
Want to play Viper? Well then learn to deal with it. No one picks up Black Mage for instance and complains that the caster has to stand still to deal damage.

[W00by]

No to everything.
They add nothing at all....

You seem to think that you are a majority, which isn't the case. The majority hate FFXIV positional.

Also, if FFXIV postional was so damn good, dozen of MO would have them which... isn't the case at all.
On the majority of MMO postional are situational.... Mostly used by Rogue/Thief/Assassin llike class (Backstab while being cloaked) or, they have mostly CC attached to them.

FFXIV Positional are just plainly bad, useless and not fun at all.... Seriously, what the point of doing back and forth just for a measly 40 or 60 potency? Where is the fun in that? and especially since ALL the DPS have true North, a skill that cancel those positional (so it's clear that SE is aware how bad this gameplay mechanic is, and how annoyg it is)
If i want "action" on a MMO i will go play BDO.... But on a Tab Targeted MMO, positional always been rare and, like i said, were always tied to Rogue/Thief/Assassin like class or situational CC.

I never encountered discussion about positional, like the hundred we have on FFXIV, on any other MMO.... So i think you should start to wonder why.

Would you care to explain why it's "no to everything"? If you look at my more recent posts in this thread, I've supplied substantial information about why I firmly believe in these statements.

In contrast, you have made a blanket "no" statement and provided a hollow argument about other games. First off, there are other games with positionals, but also ... FFXIV isn't every other game? I don't want FFXIV to be just like any other game, so does it really matter if it has a mechanic that every other game doesn't? After all, if you want to play a game without positionals, you can go play one of those other MMOs :^)

I don't think I'm in the majority across FFXIV. But I firmly believe we melee players enjoy positionals, and that most people who make takes like yours don't main melee, especially not at a high level -- which, no offense, is obviously the case for you as well.

[W00by]

I read what you're saying, W00by, I just respectfully-but-fundamentally disagree on each point.

I'm my opinion, positionals are easy, tedious busywork that add nothing positive to the game.

Perhaps you have read what I said, but you haven't engaged with my argument. I've explained in detail why, in the content I play that I enjoy, positionals are far from tedious busywork. Can you explain how positionals remain tedious busy work in DT EX2 during mechanics such as Dawn of an Age 2, or Manifestation of Turmoil, when all positional resources must be carefully managed and players must delicately position themselves to hit all of them? That's super fun for players who like that kind of thing, not idle busywork.

The point is, I get that FOR YOU, positionals are tedious busywork. But for the players that enjoy optimizing them, they're incredibly engaging. And, considering you barely lose anything by not doing them, why should I lose something I like that players who dislike them aren't forced to engage with?

Everyone will have a different opinion on them, but a world in which they exist is one where those who dislike them can just ignore them -- but I can't "ignore" them being removed the way you can ignore them being there. That's why it's important for them to stay.

[HikariKurosawa]

They should definitely have melee jobs that do not have flank positionals. Rear alone should be enough for the job based on assassination and stealth(nin), yet it gets flank for some reason.

I don't think I'm in the majority across FFXIV. But I firmly believe we melee players enjoy positionals, and that most people who make takes like yours don't main melee, especially not at a high level -- which, no offense, is obviously the case for you as well.

This forum has a big problem with projecting personal beliefs onto an entire demographic.

[Lyth]

...

You are well within your rights to dislike anything you want. Some people dislike the fact, in this game, you have to stand in one spot to cast spells. You might even have a broader audience of player that's willing to play Magical Ranged DPS if the game used a system of walking or even full movement casts. But here's the thing that you're missing. Not everyone needs to be able to play every job. In fact, the 'majority' doesn't even need to like every job.

A recurrent mistake that the devs have been making is in designing roles around people who don't actually enjoy those roles. We have tanks which no longer position bosses. We have healers that no longer have to keep their tanks alive. Over time, every role is losing its unique identity and unique values. Over time, every role is devolving into a formless, indistinguishable mass without personality or soul in the name of 'accessibility'. And as much as I dislike saying it, the core problem that Physical Ranged is experiencing right now is just that it has gotten there first. Let's not repeat that mistake here.

There are 21 combat jobs in this game and more are added with each expansion. Niche jobs are part of the long tail. It's perfectly fine to have a gameplay mechanic that even the majority of players don't like. You need a mix of both popular and less popular jobs in order to attract the broadest audience.

It's also worth noting that there are plenty of people who do like positionals. VPR, which was recently released, had the highest positional count out of any melee job on launch (although they apparently aim to change this). It was also probably the most popular job that they've ever released in the history of this game and is by far the most represented job in the released DT content (it's actually a little too successful). Who would have thought that a high APM job with positionals could be so appealing? I think when you hit an unexpected blockbuster success like that, it's important to stand back and reflect on why it happened. Maybe you've got it all wrong. Maybe simplifications aren't the answer.

I can appreciate that you have strong views on this, as do the rest of us. But unfortunately, if you dislike melee to the point that you don't even have a single melee job unlocked, then you probably never were the target audience in the first place. And that's perfectly fine.

If you design for everyone, you design for no-one. Design jobs for the people who love them.

[W00by]

They should definitely have melee jobs that do not have flank positionals. Rear alone should be enough for the job based on assassination and stealth(nin), yet it gets flank for some reason.



This forum has a big problem with projecting personal beliefs onto an entire demographic.

I don't deny that there is a demographic that exists that dislikes positionals. There are people who dislike just about every element of the game -- nothing in this game is a monolith.

But I ask you: who should melee DPS be designed for?

The people who are playing melee DPS, who have for years, and who dedicate great effort to improving at the class?

Or people who don't play melee DPS, and have no intention to?

To me, classes and characters should be designed for their most dedicated players first. Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly against massive barriers of entry that make it impossible for casual players to even play a job. I think gatekeeping like that is elitist. But, as I and many people here have explained, positionals are not a massive barrier to entry -- they are 40 or 60 potency here or there every now and then. No one who wants to play a melee is completely incapable of doing so because of positionals. (I also believe the barrier of entry to melee would get BIGGER if positionals were removed: see my prior post about that a couple pages back.)

The fact of the matter is, do I go to another country and vote in their elections? Do I visit other people's family gatherings and tell them how they should settle familial disputes? No. So I think melee players' voices should be weighed more heavily here. It's not that the voices of other demographics don't matter -- just that their voices lack a key insight that being an actual melee player provides. After all, if I don't understand something, how can I explain to someone else how it works? I can't cook, and I wouldn't tell a 5-star chef to take garlic out of his pasta recipe because I don't like garlic. He knows what he's doing way better than I do and it's probably in there for a reason.

My effort is not to gatekeep melee, but rather to explain to non-melee players why positionals remaining is better for everyone than them going away. Most of all for melee players, who I believe should matter most in a discussion about melee DPS... if that even needs to be said.

Edit: Also, just thought I would add again that there already is a melee DPS job that barely has positionals. That job is RPR, and I made a post a while back in this thread about how you can practically ignore the existence of positionals on that job and still hit pretty much all of them. Check my post history for more details! There are already plenty of places to go if you want a melee with no positionals (like Tank, as Naomishtola insightfully said).

[HikariKurosawa]

So much yapping I actually cant be bothered to read that post.

I pretty much only play melee and would celebrate the removal of positionals. TLDR.

Then there are all the people that would be playing melee if not for positionals. You are not the voice you think you are.

[W00by]

So much yapping I actually cant be bothered to read that post.

I pretty much only play melee and would celebrate the removal of positionals. TLDR.

Then there are all the people that would be playing melee if not for positionals. You are not the voice you think you are.

If you don't want to participate in a discussion about melee DPS, then why are you in a thread dedicated to discussing melee DPS? That's not really the own you think it is...

"I can't defend my position, so I'll just ignore everything you said." The ancient techniques of internet arguments are alive and well.

Regardless, you've helped me prove my point that we care more and our words should have more weight, since you can't even be bothered to ... read. And such.

Edit: Oh, and regarding that last part: I'm so glad you brought that up, because it's always fun to discuss.

The argument that there are a ton of people that would be playing melee if positionals did not exist is complete and utter nonsense.

Melee is the most popular role in the game. It's also the role with the most jobs in the game, but even if you want to go pound-for-pound, job-for-job, jobs like Samurai, Reaper, and Dragoon are consistently winning popularity polls and demonstrating census data comparable to other roles' most popular jobs, like Caster's Summoner, Aiming's Dancer, and even tank's Warrior. And this is of course ignoring the frankly titanic presence of Viper, which is the most popular job in the game (and maybe the most popular job the game has ever had). Square Enix is surely aware of melee's popularity, too, if they were willing to launch two Melee DPS in a row in Endwalker and then Dawntrail.

If positionals were scaring everyone off, would you be able to double Dancer's playerbase and still not even get close to the amount of Vipers in PF? Viper has the most positionals, after all. It's pretty clear, statistically and scientifically, that positionals are not a massive barrier to entry.

And hey, even if they are, maybe they should stay that way. Do we really need LESS aiming DPS players...?

[HikariKurosawa]

Positionals can be ignored and are by most players, it's not a barrier to entry it's just an annoying mechanic.