On the Removal of Positionals

[Arkrayven]

Hello all,

I have noticed that a lot of the criticism of Viper--those coming out in support of the announced changes--have almost nothing to say about Viper itself. The vast majority of the discussion surrounding the changes seems to be regarding the mere existence of positionals.

I will admit that i have not read every single page of every single thread and the hundreds of responses therein, but I have read dozens and dozens of them. Thus far, I haven't read any specific criticism of Viper's current rotation or playstyle. I haven't read any responses saying "Viper's APM is too high" or "It's too hard to hit both oGCDs while moving from Hunter's Coil to Swiftskin's Coil".

All the criticism I have seen can be summarized by these three comments I found across the various threads. Please excuse my paraphrasing:
1. "I am a tank main, and melee DPS has a flow that is too different for me to enjoy. Positionals are a key part of this."
2. "Missing a positional feels bad, so I'd rather them not exist and take a DPS loss instead." (Which, I feel obligated to note, is what happens if you ignore them and pretend they don't exist.)
3. "Because some wall bosses exist, and wall bosses do not require positioning to execute positionals, then positionals should not exist in any content under any circumstances."

None of these criticisms have anything to do with Viper and with whether or not Viper should be changed. They are part of an overarching discussion on the existence of positionals within the game, and whether or not positionals should exist; Viper is simply being used as an outlet for these players to criticize a gameplay element they do not want to engage with.

On that note -- engaging or not engaging with positionals -- I would like to refer everyone to the following image. I've been doing my best not to be pedantic, but this is what it has come to:

https://i.imgur.com/ZG8FQtM.png

And, keeping that image fresh in mind, I'd like to point out that maximum damage, not decent/respectable/passable damage, is the key tenant of positionals. If that continues to be a problem, or not understood, then I'd like to refer continuing critics of positionals to one of the following four images instead:
https://i.imgur.com/XnShC5m.png
https://i.imgur.com/sShdOEo.png
https://i.imgur.com/0B7Qtn9.png
https://i.imgur.com/FJNKFbk.png

[Aco505]

Sadly, topics about removing positionals from mostly non-melee mains sprout from time to time. It's an endless struggle! Funnily enough, I don't see anyone advocating for the removal of cast times or Swiftcast.

[Selvokaz]

Then simply teach the new vipers that the green buttons is for left or right of the enemy, and the red buttons are for behind the enemy.

[Melethron123]

Sadly, topics about removing positionals from mostly non-melee mains sprout from time to time. It's an endless struggle! Funnily enough, I don't see anyone advocating for the removal of cast times or Swiftcast.

people heavily advocated for the removal of cast times from BRD in heavensward

[Melethron123]

"careful positioning" can simply refer to avoiding AOEs while staying close to the boss

[anna-steele]

Sadly, topics about removing positionals from mostly non-melee mains sprout from time to time. It's an endless struggle! Funnily enough, I don't see anyone advocating for the removal of cast times or Swiftcast.

pls remove my cast time, i have 2 on ruby rite and i hate it. instant cast for all! free the people!

[Arkrayven]

"careful positioning" can simply refer to avoiding AOEs while staying close to the boss

Every class gets a DPS increase by standing close to the boss, and "avoiding AoEs" could be considered harder on hard casters.

[Magikazam]

The only issue I see is that viper does gains a lots of potency from hitting positional and you do need to hit them often. While fight knowledge and True north can somewhat fix this issues, they could just up the base skill damage and reduce positional extra potency. Also the class can be quite puzzling when you first unlock it, but that because IMO the viper tutorial you get in your job quest is just kinda bad, especially compared to Pictomancer one. Viper tutorial don't exactly tell you how to properly use it left/right side combo and that make it look way harder than it is actually to play. Making a better tutorial to make the job less confusing at first would help it a lot.

Don't get me wrong, I think people who are afraid of positional should just play other jobs if they really don't want to deal with it. Not every class should be for everyone IMO.

[W00by]

The problem is, I'm not sure how much they could reduce the additional skill potency and retain meaningful skill expression on Viper. With the exception of Dragoon and Samurai, all melee lose 60 potency when they miss a positional -- Dragoon on the other hand loses 40 and Samurai loses 50. Viper loses 60 on the Hinds/Flanks combo enders and 50 on the Dreadwinder Coils, so it's in line with other melee DPS as far as how much it loses when it fails to hit a positional.

Now, given Viper's personal haste buff, Swiftscaled, you could argue that it's performing positionals more frequently than a job like Dragoon or Reaper, but Ninja's Aeolian Edge still loses 60 potency, as does Monk's Snap Punch, and those abilities are on recast times similar to Viper's, and no one is asking for a reduction of positional reliance on Ninja or Monk because they have had time to get used to it (that is, assuming they aren't for the removal of positionals entirely).

That's what's so frustrating about the Viper situation; some players new to the job (and that means everyone right now) are trying to change Viper into something it is not because they want to play the new flashy job without feeling like they aren't performing well, without any consideration for its longevity as a job. Positionals have survived six expansions because they are integral to melee DPS engagement, and Viper's should not be done away with like a candle in the wind because some players haven't completely mastered the job in a week. As the OP suggests, Viper is completely in line with all 5 other melees and should remain as it is if they want the job to be fun not just right now, but in one year, or two, or five.

[Kaedys]

Every class gets a DPS increase by standing close to the boss, and "avoiding AoEs" could be considered harder on hard casters.

Wat? If you mean raid buffs, every single one of those has a 30 yalm range, which is further than the maximum range of any ranged attacks. People stand close to the boss because it's safer, mostly for staying in range of heals, but also for dodging things like cone attacks. It has utterly zilch to do with doing more DPS, for ranged jobs.

Also, that magical ranged DPS tooltip says their movement is restricted by spell casts. Um...summoner? Heck, Red Mage also spends less than half their time using abilities with cast bars.

Honestly, I don't think that tooltip is really going to be a terribly persuasive argument. The existence or removal of positionals must, and will, hinge on whether gameplay on the whole benefits or suffers for their existence, not whether a random tooltip mentions "careful positioning".