To Square: Please keep going with the dungeon design!

[yoshinoharu]

Finally got the chance to experience expert dungeons and I LOVE it!

This is definitely a step up from previous game design.

We have, without spoiling anything:

-Persistent damage from mobs/packs
-Environmental Damage
-Mechanics that require quick reading or reflexes
-Mechanics with small safespots
-Punishment for misplays

All of these are absolutely fantastic and have needed to happen AT LEAST in the expert dungeons for years now.

Going through the current EX dungeons makes me feel like I'm shaking off rust and decay on mental muscles that haven't been used since HW/Stormblood.

Let people actually get good at the game through something that's a step above the difficulty of levelling dungeons. It isn't hard enough that you can't get through on a first try, but hard enough that if you don't know what you're doing, you will have to learn.

I for one, am all for 'Expert' roulette actually feeling like I have to have some knowledge of how to run dungeons and read mechanics. I think they are perfectly tuned to promote growth and learning of the game and am delighted that this is the direction we're moving in!

[SerMicha]

Very much agree. The dungeons in Dawntrail are a step above Endwalker in terms of respecting player's abilities to fail and learn. I'm proud to say I bit the dust a few times in a handful of the bosses, not only the expert dungeons but also the leveling dungeons. That one trash pull in one of the level 100 dungeons with the constant environmental damage on everyone was a welcome surprise and I'm hoping we see that kind of thing more often.

Some of the bosses are still hit or miss, but I'll take just about anything that doesn't result in falling asleep at the keyboard.

I was in a party for a particular instance and someone kept dying. They said in chat "this isn't even fun at this point", and as weird as it sounds, I take that as a sign that the devs made the right decision making things at least a little more difficult. It really shouldn't take 100 levels to finally get to story content that challenges players, but I'm glad we got to this point at all.

[PorxiesRCute]

I agree. Dawntrail's dungeons were a lot of fun. But please also keep a strict item level sync on them; that's half the problem with old dungeons being unfun.

[CatWeazle]

I'll throw an unpopular opinion in here: For me as a casual player, the leveling dungeons were hard, but doable; But I did one level 100 dungeon and it was a frustrating wipe-fest, so the high level dungeons are one more thing I won't do anymore in this game.

I'm not against hard content, but it should always be optional. I for one was perfectly happy with the difficulty of the EW-dungeons, for me that difficulty does not need to be any higher. Therefore I'd say give the players who want a big challenge an "expert"-version of the dungeons and us filthy casuals an easier one, so we can enjoy the content too.

[Aniya_Estlihn]

I for one was perfectly happy with the difficulty of the EW-dungeons, for me that difficulty does not need to be any higher.

Endwalker has some of the easiest dungeons they've ever implemented. Naoki Yoshida even admitted at PAX East that he was falling asleep playing his own game when doing expert dungeons in Endwalker.
These new dungeons are not hard, but they do require you to pay attention and actually learn fights, which is the bare minimum that should be required in any piece of content in an MMO.

Wiping in content is not "anti casual", never has been and where that mindset came from is beyond me, but its wrong and not something anyone should claim as fact.

You wipe, you get better, learn what you did wrong and eventually it becomes second nature.
That is the core experience of playing an MMO, something this game has lacked for ages.

[CatWeazle]

Endwalker has some of the easiest dungeons they've ever implemented. Naoki Yoshida even admitted at PAX East that he was falling asleep playing his own game when doing expert dungeons in Endwalker.
These new dungeons are not hard, but they do require you to pay attention and actually learn fights, which is the bare minimum that should be required in any piece of content in an MMO.

Wiping in content is not "anti casual", never has been and where that mindset came from is beyond me, but its wrong and not something anyone should claim as fact.

You wipe, you get better, learn what you did wrong and eventually it becomes second nature.
That is the core experience of playing an MMO, something this game has lacked for ages.

Well, it is not wrong for me ... but ok, then call me "noob" for all I care (I might actually be one, even after all this playtime). But I can explain to you where I'm coming from.

I play a game to be entertained, not to be challenged. A little bit is fine, too much and I won't do that content or quit the game altogether. For me, playing a game is purely for entertainment and fun, to relax and free my head from work related things. Final Fantasy is such a great game for me, because the story dungeons (and even the high level ones up to EW) were absolutely doable for me, even though I'm certainly not a very good player. I had fun. So I was in a good place, I enjoed a good story (up to EW anyways, Dawntrail is not really a good story), could do the "normal" dungeons which were not very challenging, and others who wanted a more difficult challenge could do savage, extreme trials, ultimates and whatnot. All good.

Now we have the situation that the difficulty level is being increased because for some people (maybe most of them) it's more fun. Fine, for me its not, so I'm happy not to do those dungeons if they're optional. You guys can knock yourself out. However, if the dungeons I am forced to do (story dungeons) get the same difficulty level as the current expert-dungeons, I might have a problem progressing in the MSQ. And that would be sad, because I love the game and the people here.

I'm playing this game because it's accessible and fun for everyone, even for someone like me, who does not want to become extremely good in playing a certain job or to die eight times in a dungeon before I get the mechanics of the bosses right enough to maybe not die. I just want to have fun like everyone else. Just that for me the fun lies not in a higher difficulty of dungeons.

*sigh* ... maybe I should go and play minesweeper ... but I enjoy playing with all the people her too much

[SeriousPan]

Agreed, this difficulty is fantastic and by level 100 people should be able to figure out repeated mechanics by now. The first level 100 dungeon is the easiest of the 3 available dungeons due to being linked to the MSQ while the 2 optionals are much more difficult. It shows an awareness that story players need an easier time while the dedicated players will go and get the additionals unlocked to have even more fun.

The first 100 dungeon has trusts which is essentially easy mode. They give you the answers to mechanics way ahead of time. It can't be simpler than that. And as one or two people have said, they just won't engage with the harder 2 dungeons. That's fine for me. If you get filtered by content and realise that it's not for you then that's reasonable. MSQ will always have trusts now and optional dungeons won't. I do think though that if you can't clear with Trusts then an even easier mode won't be any help. DT is super forgiving on wipes and puts you right back at the boss to try again. Dust yourself off and have another try, there's nothing wrong with failing and trying again and I don't see how wiping is considered a game ruining experience anymore.

[S__th_rn_fl_am_]

I play a game to be entertained, not to be challenged. A little bit is fine, too much and I won't do that content or quit the game altogether. For me, playing a game is purely for entertainment and fun, to relax and free my head from work related things. Final Fantasy is such a great game for me, because the story dungeons (and even the high level ones up to EW) were absolutely doable for me, even though I'm certainly not a very good player. I had fun. So I was in a good place, I enjoed a good story (up to EW anyways, Dawntrail is not really a good story), could do the "normal" dungeons which were not very challenging, and others who wanted a more difficult challenge could do savage, extreme trials, ultimates and whatnot. All good.

Now we have the situation that the difficulty level is being increased because for some people (maybe most of them) it's more fun. Fine, for me its not, so I'm happy not to do those dungeons if they're optional. You guys can knock yourself out. However, if the dungeons I am forced to do (story dungeons) get the same difficulty level as the current expert-dungeons, I might have a problem progressing in the MSQ. And that would be sad, because I love the game and the people here.

I'm playing this game because it's accessible and fun for everyone, even for someone like me, who does not want to become extremely good in playing a certain job or to die eight times in a dungeon before I get the mechanics of the bosses right enough to maybe not die. I just want to have fun like everyone else. Just that for me the fun lies not in a higher difficulty of dungeons.

Please don't take this response as mean, but you have an easy option for the dungeons: trusts. you can literally stop all focus on your rotation and just move when mechanics are happening, following one of the NPCs to safe areas.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

I'll throw an unpopular opinion in here: For me as a casual player, the leveling dungeons were hard, but doable; But I did one level 100 dungeon and it was a frustrating wipe-fest, so the high level dungeons are one more thing I won't do anymore in this game.

I'm not against hard content, but it should always be optional. I for one was perfectly happy with the difficulty of the EW-dungeons, for me that difficulty does not need to be any higher. Therefore I'd say give the players who want a big challenge an "expert"-version of the dungeons and us filthy casuals an easier one, so we can enjoy the content too.

It's always worse the first few weeks of release. But then gear, skilled players, materia etc make them easy.

[Minali]

I loved the dungeons as well, there were many interesting mechanics and combinations of mechanics. Played MSQ as scholar and it most certainly kept me on my toes.

That said, we still have to watch and see how they will hold up long term. I played during Early Access and we're still in release week. We'll see how they feel once more people know how to handle things. (I assume once 3 of 4 people know the mechanics it's also going to be a bit more smoother for people who don't appreciate this difficulty level.) When I played the story dungeons with two first timer friends after I and the fourth one have been in there a few times already, things were a lot smoother (but not boring) already.
A proper level sync would definitely be appreciated, especially for the X0 dungeons. Either way it is going into the right direction.