The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

[Papayatar]

Would the memories themselves remain but there would be a blank space where the dead person used to be, so you know there was "someone" but you just can't remember them for the life of you?

This talk about how the memory removal works is fascinating (and it’s sad we didn’t get to go ore
in depth in game outside of bits and pieces in side quests) but this stuck out to me cuz in the final Cornservant quest this is kinda touched on

Spoilers JIC

Essentially S9 woman has strong feelings of sadness/grief/etc but she doesn’t understand it so it manifest as loss of taste then to loss of appetite. We and Cornservant give her food. That food reminds her that there was someone special in her life tied to this specific food. Acknowledges they’re probably in the cloud/erased from memory. And kinda sorta gets closure on that.

So p.much the memories get erased but it’s not a perfect process since there’s def a possibility of some sort of domino effect when/of other issues happen because you’ve forgotten someone. Whether it be stuff with friends, health, or like I think a quest NPC in S9 received an inheritance and that’s an extra layer of issues.

There’s just a lot of issues not talked about with erasing people from memory.

[Raven2014]

WARNING: treat this whole post as spoiler




You were warned!





If anyone still hold onto the idea the Endless should be treat as real people and what we did at the end has a case to be argue for genocide, I have one character would invalidate the validity: Otis.

First, the idea of digitalize human is not exactly a new or unexplored concept, but for the viewer/player to treat the projection as real people, the writing usually have to include some underwriting to make the memory unique in certain way. One that pop into my head right away is the anime Zegapain. Humanity got wiped out with a decease, and have to live inside virtual world. However, because it's a lot of data to replicate an authentic version, each person only have one copy stored in a quantum state. The data can be transfer between terminal, but it's always have to be the whole package. If the data is corrupted or damage, the "person" will suffer something akin to sickness. If its host terminal is destroyed, the data is gone forever - aka death.

Second, look at the fact that there are two Otis existing at the same time, for me basically render any argument that can be had about the Endless as real person moot. Because it shows that what we see is indeed, nothing more than data that can be procreate at will because they are not unique. Otherwise, if I kill one Otis it's the murder of one person, but if the system simulate 10 Otis, does that mean i committed murder ten times?



Frankly, the Endless as whole is probably the worst writing I've ever seen regarding this theme in any form of media. It's very obvious that the writers want the provoke some emotional reaction from the players, but has so little skill and forethought to make it work. Another example is the fight where Otis's scarify to save Sphene:

- We were just show 10 minutes earlier when Zoraal Ja repeatedly cutting down Sphene with no real consequence because she's just a terminal.

- So how am I supposed to feel anything when Otis "valiantly" defense Sphene, who for some reason just "helplessly sitting on the ground"? Like, at least tell him it doesn't matter if you care that much, you can always port to another terminal at will like shown just 10 mins ago!

- And then to just rub it in, right after the fight Sphene immediately abandon the terminal that Otis just gave up his life defending. Like ... lady, if you just do that 2 minutes earlier maybe your knight captain wouldn't pointlessly die such a cringy death?


Like I said, it's very obvious the writers want us to "feel" something about this scene, but the only feeling I have after seeing is how ubsurdily stupid it is, almost to the point of insulting.

[franklinwi]

Second, look at the fact that there are two Otis existing at the same time, for me basically render any argument that can be had about the Endless as real person moot. Because it shows that what we see is indeed, nothing more than data that can be procreate at will because they are not unique. Otherwise, if I kill one Otis it's the murder of one person, but if the system simulate 10 Otis, does that mean i committed murder ten times?

I don't think this follows. If you step into a Star Trek style transporter and on the other side two of you come out, does that mean one of the two isn't a person?

Or for a perhaps more XIV-specific framing, if immediately after the sundering Emet-Selch kills ten of a sundered ancient's "shades" across ten reflections, is he guilty of one murder or ten?

[Veebee]

For what OP said, this is so perfect, ATM of typing this, I'm a good chunk through the MSQ and right now I don't find the narrative interesting at all, and it becomes an on and off and on again of MSQing while doing other things because I find it lacking the "wow this is interesting I have to keep going" feeling I got from all previous expansions. I really dislike Wuk because of her Steven universe personality of "love, peace and food" to solve all problem unless It's to beat up ja ja or evil do-er. I thought there would be a moment of "wow is she self reflecting? Is her character going to take a turn/change a little?" Nope. She patted her face with both hands and said "haha I'm good now, no sadness, no loathing of my shortcomings". If anything, the scenery is the most interesting part of the DT than the story has.

[Zaniel]

Second, look at the fact that there are two Otis existing at the same time, for me basically render any argument that can be had about the Endless as real person moot. Because it shows that what we see is indeed, nothing more than data that can be procreate at will because they are not unique. Otherwise, if I kill one Otis it's the murder of one person, but if the system simulate 10 Otis, does that mean i committed murder ten times?

They even reinforce this idea by making it plain that mechanical Otis is the original Otis with his first soul and unaltered memories held in some sort of soul crystal technology within the robot. Once the robot (and its inbuilt soul storage) stops functioning Otis is dead.

[GreenLeafy]

My issue with Otis as a crux for why the Endless aren't real people is that there's so many other NPCs that contradict him too. Several of the side quests NPCs and even the wedding band guy from MSQ clearly say and are aware of the fact that they died and their continued existence in this form is different but it is a continued existence. They pursue things they were not capable of doing in real life , and honestly Cahciua falls into that category too. And they are aware that their existence in this form cannot last either and are okay with the day coming where they cannot have these forms anymore and move on. As soon as you step out of the MSQ the way the Endless are portrayed feels like a drastic shift of what the MSQ is trying to tell you and force you to feel about them and I genuinely can't tell if thats something that was miscommunicated between the writers for MSQ and the side content.

The existence of Otis himself as he is in the latter part of MSQ aswell is a bit of a puzzle because I genuinely can't remember if his memories(honestly conciousness to some extent) were uploaded and preserved in some way because I was left under the impression he was the first person to ever subject himself to that type of transfer of organic conciousness into the robot and even that process differs from what the Endless we meet are because they aren't robots they just get a form that also just dissipates into magic aether dust (not to mention that they also have NPCs LINGER even after shutting off the server which is also so???? how tf do they linger if they are supposedly part of a machine and that machine is OFF?) . So its like they put him there for the sake of trying to elicit some type of emotional response more than anything.

I agree that it is by far the worst part of the story because it was so terribly inconsistent and honestly its that inconsistency that really pits us into the argument of it. The explanation for the whole thing is so haphazardly put together and the MSQ tries its absolute best to force a view on it for nothing other than to try and mask the morally dubious act you're railroaded into doing. Its a shame we get a narrative over this question be so poorly executed considering we literally have a Nier collab in the game - the franchise that has been tackling these types of questions for years and done an excellent job exploring it.

[Bonoki]

My issue with Otis as a crux for why the Endless aren't real people is that there's so many other NPCs that contradict him too. Several of the side quests NPCs and even the wedding band guy from MSQ clearly say and are aware of the fact that they died and their continued existence in this form is different but it is a continued existence. They pursue things they were not capable of doing in real life , and honestly Cahciua falls into that category too. And they are aware that their existence in this form cannot last either and are okay with the day coming where they cannot have these forms anymore and move on. As soon as you step out of the MSQ the way the Endless are portrayed feels like a drastic shift of what the MSQ is trying to tell you and force you to feel about them and I genuinely can't tell if thats something that was miscommunicated between the writers for MSQ and the side content.

The existence of Otis himself as he is in the latter part of MSQ aswell is a bit of a puzzle because I genuinely can't remember if his memories(honestly conciousness to some extent) were uploaded and preserved in some way because I was left under the impression he was the first person to ever subject himself to that type of transfer of organic conciousness into the robot and even that process differs from what the Endless we meet are because they aren't robots they just get a form that also just dissipates into magic aether dust (not to mention that they also have NPCs LINGER even after shutting off the server which is also so???? how tf do they linger if they are supposedly part of a machine and that machine is OFF?) . So its like they put him there for the sake of trying to elicit some type of emotional response more than anything.

I agree that it is by far the worst part of the story because it was so terribly inconsistent and honestly its that inconsistency that really pits us into the argument of it. The explanation for the whole thing is so haphazardly put together and the MSQ tries its absolute best to force a view on it for nothing other than to try and mask the morally dubious act you're railroaded into doing. Its a shame we get a narrative over this question be so poorly executed considering we literally have a Nier collab in the game - the franchise that has been tackling these types of questions for years and done an excellent job exploring it.

It's not very well thought out but the reason the NPCs linger is cause of plot armor. The side quests and FATEs within the zone would cease to function as well, and canonically, they probably do. They linger for the sake of gameplay and the zone from being entirely barren.

[GreenLeafy]

It's not very well thought out but the reason the NPCs linger is cause of plot armor. The side quests and FATEs within the zone would cease to function as well, and canonically, they probably do. They linger for the sake of gameplay and the zone from being entirely barren.

Pretty unfortunate use of plot armour if it makes such a crucial part of your MSQ fall on its face lol. God I wish this entire area's narrative was tackled with a bit more finesse. Could've been really good.

[njorun]

Well... truthfully I'm at a loss for words. I'm sitting here at my computer wanting to express just how much I disliked the MSQ and I find myself speechless. I had no expectations and yet Dawntrail still failed to meet them. I am absolutely not canonizing Dawntrail in my WoL's story. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but it's actually offensive and insulting to me and my character's intelligence.

Same here! My girl would never have followed through supporting Wuk Lamat, so I'm rewriting it to where she tells her flat out 'you are not fit to lead, and I will not support you. I won't stand in your way, but I refuse to do anything to help, either.' And she goes and has her own adventures in Tural, only showing up during certain events when the Scions request her help. Ironically rewriting it has made me MORE excited about the expansion than the actual MSQ itself. It's really, really sad. And frightening, honestly. If this continues to be a trend with the writing, where it's so poor that it feels like the only answer is to rewrite it... well. We'll cross that bridge if we get to it, which I dearly hope we don't.

[Raven2014]

Or for a perhaps more XIV-specific framing, if immediately after the sundering Emet-Selch kills ten of a sundered ancient's "shades" across ten reflections, is he guilty of one murder or ten?

In the case of the Sunderered, each fragment still carry a partial soul. That's why you can make the argument that they're still real individual, and why Emer Sech's argument can be considered a genocide. The same thing can't be said about the Endless. Like mentioned by another poster:

They even reinforce this idea by making it plain that mechanical Otis is the original Otis with his first soul and unaltered memories held in some sort of soul crystal technology within the robot. Once the robot (and its inbuilt soul storage) stops functioning Otis is dead.

To be specific, this is mentioned by Sphene after the mechanical Otis died. She said "the old unit does not carry a regulator and thus their soul can not be replenished, he is gone". So if this is the original Otis with a soul, that means the projection in the reflection that exists at the same time were just a fake souless copy, no matter how much sentinel it appeared and that apply to the entire zone 6.

My issue with Otis as a crux for why the Endless aren't real people is that there's so many other NPCs that contradict him too ....

I agree that it is by far the worst part of the story because it was so terribly inconsistent and honestly its that inconsistency that really pits us into the argument of it. The explanation for the whole thing is so haphazardly put together and the MSQ tries its absolute best to force a view on it for nothing other than to try and mask the morally dubious act you're railroaded into doing.

Yep, like I said it's very obvious what the writers want to do, but somehow they end up write themselves into a corner every times with the Endless. It's like multiple people were working on this piece of lore and it's a case of the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Considered how in ShB and EW the previous team and Ishakawa painfully make sure things stay consistent when they (very obviously) tried to rewrite the 2.0 lore regarding Ancient (for the better) so that most thing have a feasible explanation, the lack of attention to detail showed here is amazing in a bad way.

For example: if they have consistently stick with mechanical Otis as the standard motifs for all the Endless, they would have success in what they're trying to do. But the moment you step into Zone 6, it's like a completely different writer who disregard everything that was established in zone 5.