Physical Ranged (Also SMN) "Freedom of Movement" Tax

[Aco505]

Snip

If you look at the 99 percentiles for the current extremes in the FFlogs webpage, the difference between BRD/DNC and melee is around 2k rDPS or 10%. It's not 20%+

When it comes to aDPS, MCH is below NIN/DRG by 1k, which is around 5%, and is above all the other ranged DPS besides PCT and BLM.

Finally, in the nDPS department, MCH is still above the aforementioned ranged DPS and closer to DRG/NIN, by 400-500 points.


As other posters have said, the gap overall should be lower between the top and the bottom (e. g. I haven't included the difference in rDPS between PCT and MCH, which is almost 3k points) but there's also a misconception when it comes to understanding the metrics FFlogs provides.

A "selfish" job can never have higher rDPS than a job with buffs and, vice versa, a job with buffs should never have higher aDPS than a selfish job. All these metrics have to be understood in different contexts and compared to one another.

All the metrics FFlogs uses are based on party comp in one way or another except for nDPS, so that's also something relevant to consider.

If MCH, for instance, had higher rDPS than BRD/DNC, then MCH would eclipse them and be the default choice for all content. DNC might be alright due to SAM but that's about it. This doesn't change the fact that MCH's damage is likely a bit too low at the moment, however.

Examples of why this would be problematic can be found in Criterion dungeons, where the best jobs were the more "selfish" ones -BLM, SAM, RPR, MCH and SMN- and several ranged DPS such as SMN were equal or above the other melee in rDPS not only due to the fact that you have to work for your uptime there but also because buff jobs are at a disadvantage due to having less targets to buff and the compensating dungeon buff being applied to everyone in the party and not the buff jobs themselves. This also affects other roles such as healers with SGE being clearly superior to the other options.

Outside of Criterion dungeon, we have examples such as SAM in ShB and BLM in the later stages of EW, where they had higher rDPS than buffing jobs as well, meaning that a SAM/BLM on a dummy alone would provide higher rDPS to the party than a NIN buffing 7 other people in a "perfect" comp and with everyone doing their job well. And a SAM/BLM in that situation still benefits from buffs, thus increasing their DPS (aDPS in this case) further.

TL; DR. The gap between the top and the bottom jobs should be lowered. Whether we believe ranged DPS should deal less or not due to their full uptime, a "selfish" job can never have higher rDPS than a buffing job and vice versa when it comes to aDPS. Part of the issue of the DPS difference between jobs and roles lies in encounter design, as Criterion dungeons show.

[NightHour]

If you look at the 99 percentiles for the current extremes in the FFlogs webpage, the difference between BRD/DNC and melee is around 2k rDPS or 10%. It's not 20%+

When it comes to aDPS, MCH is below NIN/DRG by 1k, which is around 5%, and is above all the other ranged DPS besides PCT and BLM.

Finally, in the nDPS department, MCH is still above the aforementioned ranged DPS and closer to DRG/NIN, by 400-500 points.


As other posters have said, the gap overall should be lower between the top and the bottom (e. g. I haven't included the difference in rDPS between PCT and MCH, which is almost 3k points) but there's also a misconception when it comes to understanding the metrics FFlogs provides.

A "selfish" job can never have higher rDPS than a job with buffs and, vice versa, a job with buffs should never have higher aDPS than a selfish job. All these metrics have to be understood in different contexts and compared to one another.

All the metrics FFlogs uses are based on party comp in one way or another except for nDPS, so that's also something relevant to consider.



Also most of the reasons why the tax existed aren't exactly prevalent in current day XIV

1. Ability to attack from range? Most mechanics resolve at Max melee now a days, melee are handed uptime on a silver platter.
2. Raid buffs and Support? Ok then what's Brotherhood, Battle Litany, Mug, Arcane Circle, Mantra, Arcane Crest? Raid buffs / Support in Mantra's case.
3. Mobility? Sure but that doesn't warrant the current levels of damage difference.
If MCH, for instance, had higher rDPS than BRD/DNC, then MCH would eclipse them and be the default choice for all content. DNC might be alright due to SAM but that's about it. This doesn't change the fact that MCH's damage is likely a bit too low at the moment, however.

Examples of why this would be problematic can be found in Criterion dungeons, where the best jobs were the more "selfish" ones -BLM, SAM, RPR, MCH and SMN- and several ranged DPS such as SMN were equal or above the other melee in rDPS not only due to the fact that you have to work for your uptime there but also because buff jobs are at a disadvantage due to having less targets to buff and the compensating dungeon buff being applied to everyone in the party and not the buff jobs themselves. This also affects other roles such as healers with SGE being clearly superior to the other options.

Outside of Criterion dungeon, we have examples such as SAM in ShB and BLM in the later stages of EW, where they had higher rDPS than buffing jobs as well, meaning that a SAM/BLM on a dummy alone would provide higher rDPS to the party than a NIN buffing 7 other people in a "perfect" comp and with everyone doing their job well. And a SAM/BLM in that situation still benefits from buffs, thus increasing their DPS (aDPS in this case) further.

TL; DR. The gap between the top and the bottom jobs should be lowered. Whether we believe ranged DPS should deal less or not due to their full uptime, a "selfish" job can never have higher rDPS than a buffing job and vice versa when it comes to aDPS. Part of the issue of the DPS difference between jobs and roles lies in encounter design, as Criterion dungeons show.

I'm looking at 70 percentile for the following reasons -


It's the minimum where I'd consider someone decent at their jobs and is a much larger sample size of data.

[Aco505]

I'm looking at 70 percentile for the following reasons -


It's the minimum where I'd consider someone decent at their jobs and is a much larger sample size of data.

It's very likely that the devs do not balance the jobs based on what we understand as the 99th percentile either. They probably do it at around the 75-90 or so. But that will come at a cost, too, since jobs being balanced at lower percentiles will not mean that there won't be differences at higher ones.

However, at least the differences in output at higher percentiles are more consistent with the jobs' potential.

[Valence]

( Just use cDPS metrics for quick comparisons and you'll save yourself a headache... )

Whether you make rphys behind in damage output or equal in damage output, you'll end up with either the rphys job being taken just to fill up a party bonus because the other roles do more damage, or you'll end up in the second case with the other roles being taken to fill up a party bonus because rphys can move freely and provide more consistent damage at least in prog.

This is not a solvable conundrum, no matter what people's opinions are on the matter. Lowering the gap is not a solution either. The solution is to bring back or provide new niches specific to every role to justify their presence in parties (and provide them more role identity). Once this is fulfilled, then balancing suddenly jumps out of that dead end and we can start actually talking.

[Aco505]

( Just use cDPS metrics for quick comparisons and you'll save yourself a headache... )

cDPS doesn't paint the full picture either and is even more affected by party comp. All metrics have to be compared and analyzed individually and then between them.

[Rithy255]

You run whatever dps is highest in race situations. Look at world of warcraft. If melee roles are higher, you'll stack those. If casters are higher, those get stacked. It's a moot point to say "you'll only bring ranged" if the ranged phys suddenly become competitive, especially now when plenty of uptime tools exist for every job. But what we got right now isn't working and is dragging down not just class design but fight design as a whole.

This discussion is pretty much you
A: Either make the physical ranged do the same damage as the other DPS, that makes the other DPS less useful.
B: You make the Physical ranged do slightly less damage then other DPS, that makes the physical ranged less useful in higher end.

Sadly theirs always going to be trade offs with this sort of design, I will advocate for better treatment towards the Physical ranged role, but going in the full direction of A is also a bad idea from my perspective, I don't really see the otherside of the argument working either where physical ranged are so behind for the sake of tax... the gap is way way too much and I'll agree to that.

Like it or not 1% buff has to exist as a fail safe, which is frustrating but again without it existing we would see one type of damage role likely pushed out, currently with balancing Phys ranged would easily get replaced likely with double caster double melee, but on the other end if we were to buff physical ranged to be on the point of melee/caster, bringing either would just be making your life difficult picking anything other then physical ranged, This also restricts fights to have no downtime (I mean modern fights already do this, but considering hit box changes recently maybe we will see more down time), I think it's clear that if a fight was to have down time it would be pointless to bring a melee.

Theirs never going to be a "solution" when it comes to Class design one job type will always draw the short end of the stick, I again do not want machinist to hypothetically do the same damage numbers as a Black Mage, because then the choice between limited mobility with some movement options vs a job who gets free mobility all the time is easy if they do the same damage (mch also gets a free mit), While people may point out "oh but casters have free movement tools", BLM for example to have maximum damage should be using instant casts inside their ley lines, but the issue is you will also sometimes need to save instant casts and lose out on damage, triple cast and some movement tools on paper may close the gap a little bit but doesn't actually fully take away that factor into design.

I'm very clear that I want more importance inside the physical ranged role, the gap is far to different, which is a issue, I want to make that fully clear that I'm in support of upping physical ranged, but I'll I'm saying is theirs drawbacks of making the role do the same damage as Melee/caster.

[Ruminous]

I'm very clear that I want more importance inside the physical ranged role, the gap is far to different, which is a issue, I want to make that fully clear that I'm in support of upping physical ranged, but I'll I'm saying is theirs drawbacks of making the role do the same damage as Melee/caster.

And you touched on the bigger point. Drawbacks. None really exist for any role right now due to available tools or the boss's hitbox just being massive. Melee don't have to sit out for any large amounts of time, casters can still freely cast or have instants that aren't weak...Which leaves phys ranged with no clear advantage since the only advantage it had is moot now due to design just progressing. We naturally get tools as we level that increase our capability.

So, if the problem is phys ranged has too much of an advantage if it does as much as the top end, then let's give something phys ranged need to be mindful of. Something they have to do in order to maximize their damage, much like how melee need to stay glued to the boss or casters need to be actively casting. This isn't just a "buff phys ranged across the board", this is a "let's update the design for phys ranged" so they can be competitive too. Shrinking hitboxes wont 100% reduce melee uptime, strats will come out that seek to maximize their uptime. Casters will still have instant casts to deal with dancing. Maybe give phys ranged a damage boost from positioning themselves properly and rewarding them for it?

But, you're suddenly not going to see a drop in melee and casters because phys ranged suddenly became viable. But, rather than just give phys ranged straight potency across the board, let's give a trait to being phys ranged that rewards the player for positioning.

[RaZz0r]

Snip.

Adding more old tech to phys range won't solve anything positionals should just to removed at this point altogether, we already struggle with being a product of a bygone era.

DPS jobs as a whole could honestly do with a complete rework it is as you said there is really no downside of picking a melee or a caster anymore there was a time when phys range could still shine with lower potency attacks due to range and no cast times.
Where melee would sometimes lose quite a bit of uptime from time to time or miss a positional which would leave a dent in their damage, and casters had downtime where they could not cast for extended periods of time.

These things just don't happen anymore, casters have a bunch of options for things they can do when they need to move combined with the use of slide casting due to the build in client side latency.
As for melee, the boss hit boxes are practically the same size as the whole boss arena, missing the occasional positional is no big deal the potency drop is minimal, and you have two stacks of true north allowing you to ignore it completely

Yet they still have a 10-20% damage bump to cover for downsides that no longer exist leaving phys ranged players in the dirt we are like an unwanted stepchild, that square has no idea how to deal with.

At most there should be like a 2-5% DPS difference between all DPS at the top end, their raid DPS should be roughly the same assuming equal skill is at play.
(Naturally the personal DPS for buff jobs should be a bit lower to compensate for the DMG boost they bring, but their raid DPS should still be on par with everyone else)

I just hope we can at least see some basic potency buffs before savage comes out because right now bringing a phys range over another melee or caster is just pointless.
Even with the 1% damage boost of a diverse group comp and the 5% additional DR casters and melee just do way more damage.

[Ruminous]

We'll probably see potency buffs, ala gust slash getting 50 more potency. If anyone remembers that.

[Connor]

Isn’t literally the whole point of physical ranged that party support is supposed their thing. Even Machinist was initially a party supporter with Promote Auto-Turret and Hypercharge. Naturally, they had the lowest output of all the dps to compensate.

Now, they act like physical ranged are somehow supposed to compete with melee and casters, yet the only actually beneficial thing phys ranged brought is now in significant abundance on every job lol. So they have crappy damage, crappy support (not counting raid buffs which practically every dps has now), and the devs just don’t really seem to care about the gaping hole they left the role with.

Personally I think just ‘buffing potencies’ to give phys ranged higher dps is futility. All upping their dps will ever do is cause balancing issues for the entire dps role. Like, how could they justify Bard or Dancer ever doing more personal damage than Red Mage or Summoner, without pissing everyone in that role subsection off lol.

They should keeptheir dps at the bottom but make them actually do what they’re supposed to: offering unique ways to support the party and not just being a mindless 120s buff pressing machine who’s only there for the 1% role bonus. That way they can make physical ranged valuable without having to deal with their dps contribution being close to equal to casters and melee