About Positionals

[Laun_dingo]

Oh yeah having to waste yet another precious hotkey to deal with a bad system totally makes it better. I also know how the circle hit boxes work, my point was you have fights where you can't even do them at all so why are they in the game? Fights should be consistent with how you deal your damage. So lets break this down again...

We have some melee jobs that don't have to deal with them.
We have bosses that don't even allow you to do them.
We have what feels like a vestigial ability still in the game to ignore them.
The new class put into the game is having a patch within the first month of launch to remove them.

Why are they even in the game? To have something that people say "Well you can ignore it if you want anyways" so again... why is it in the game? People shouldn't feel like their damage is getting gimped by not participating in this "optional" and outdated part of the game. It doesn't matter if you aren't forced to do them, the feeling is still always there. You also shouldn't have certain classes just locked off forever if you don't want to deal with the system by just avoiding those jobs in the first place. It just feels so outdated and unfun, if they were so good then combos would still be required to land your positionals.

It's the least fun part of any job that has them. They're arbitrary and don't make sense at all. Outside of a few outliers like a ninja's trick attack which is probably the only one I'd keep in the game. Also when you're doing them efficiently you are barely moving, since you'll be in the center of the flank and rear so you have to take one step at most to trigger them. Like at that point are you really hitting a full rear, or a full flank? No. So why have them? You're just gaming an already gamey and niche system not at all playing it the way it was probably originally intended.

It really isn't that bad as you're making it out to be, but I do enjoy it and I know other players enjoy it because is just satisfying/engaging to do. To each their own. Also if every boss fight was the same no positionals that would be less of a challenge, and less fun to deal with in my opinion. You're not locked out of these jobs because positionals, you just refuse to take a job that just so has them and a system that is mostly used for harder content dps checks.
Also why is it in the game? Why is knock back in the game, swiftcast, interrupts, boss enrage. Like come on it's a game there is supposed to be a challenge. Like again positionals certainly start to matter in much harder content that challenges you even more. Thats what I love about this game, the intentions is to have everyone in mind for those who want a challenge and for those who don't.

If you hate doing positionals like again just don't do them, just know that harder content like savage and ultimates will have DPS checks where yes positionals will start to matter and I don't think they are changing that anytime soon.
I won't continue debating with you since you don't want to see why people want them.

Also never knew pressing one button is such a bad thing, guess we get rid of swiftcast too, don't know why we have to slow cast all the time. (I play on controller btw)

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

Positionals are fine as is, if you can't hit them, play one of the myriad of other jobs, don't drag the game down to your level by demanding their removal.

[W00by]

It so often surprises me that positionals are such a hotly contested subject in this game. "They are a core mechanic of the melee class, and if you don't like them, there are other roles to play." This is the argument often made by pro-positional players (such as myself), but it doesn't seem to sit well with anti-positional audiences.

To them, I posit a hypothetical: What if I, as a player, hate the idea of cast times? I simply detest holding still, it makes me feel like I'm moving through molasses, and I don't like that to be an optimal caster player, I have to learn how to cancel my casts by moving late in the cast bar (slidecasting) in order to play optimally.

Would you then say it's fair to champion the total removal of cast times? After all, all four caster DPS, all 4 healers, and even two of the melees have cast times! If I hate cast times, then surely I simply cannot play these roles. You might say there are jobs like Summoner, that are "casters" but don't cast that much that I could play -- but to that, I would say there are jobs like Reaper that have positionals but very rarely and with much greater control over when you do them than other melees that you can play if you don't like positionals but feel you MUST play a melee.

So what would you say to a player who hypothetically hates cast times? Would you argue for the removal of casting? After all, a bad tank can cause a boss to place AoEs underneath you, forcing you to move and cancel a cast. And on some bosses, they don't matter because the boss is off the edge of a platform and you hardly ever have to move anyway. So surely it wouldn't be too bad to delete them, no?

But no, you don't see people arguing that cast times need to be removed. Because they are integral to the balance and design of caster DPS and healers, and some people might even find them subjectively fun. If you want to play a ranged DPS without cast times, there are options for that, or you could play tank or melee too.

It's the same deal for melee. Some people subjectively like positionals, and if you don't like them, maybe don't play melee.

[ThorneDynasty]

Considering how many defenders new SMN has: Oh god please stop bringing up cast times, there are players who totally would remove them. I know BLM took some damage but it's still salvageable, don't give them even worse ideas.

[Kazimere]

You all need to chill. They said they were taking a look and making some adjustments. It doesn’t mean they’re going to remove every positional from viper, so stop whining.

Additionally, the auto combo for the filler is a pain, and that’s causing more issues than the positional themselves.

[W00by]

You all need to chill. They said they were taking a look and making some adjustments. It doesn’t mean they’re going to remove every positional from viper, so stop whining.

Additionally, the auto combo for the filler is a pain, and that’s causing more issues than the positional themselves.

A pain to who? You? I happen to love the filler combos, so it's certainly not a pain to me. You'll quickly find that your opinion of the game isn't monolithic, and that -- get this -- people can disagree with you on things!

Your thoughts are as valid as anyone else's. Simply by speaking here, you're doing the same thing you describe as us "whining" -- you're "whining" about us.

Of course, I don't think you're whining, you're expressing your opinion. Just like we are! We have thoughts about the proposed Viper changes and want to share them with the developers. If we don't like those changes, we have every right as active users to complain about them. I believe in an era of simplification, the fact that simplifications have been proposed for a week old job is concerning and want to share that.

If you are in favor of, or against the changes, feel free to share your thoughts. But attacking other players for having the audacity to care about something in a video game they've dedicated tens of hours to -- maybe more -- is just really lame.

[Kazimere]

Me calling people out isn’t whining. People (not you) are jumping to conclusions before anything has even been done.

I’m making objective statements. I don’t personally care if positional stay or go, but I do know they’re more annoying to do on Viper than on the other melee. The gameplay of Viper being a nice flow and very fun aside, the nature of its setup lends itself to having to look at the hotbars more than the other melee, because the flow of the filler isn’t the same from gcd to gcd. That makes things more annoying, because you can’t really get into a flow while focusing on mechanics.

My opinion is that if you remove the positional requirements from the filler but leave them for the double blade triggers then people would be happier. Or, open up the GCDs on the filler to be their own buttons, so that people have a semblance of things more consistently.

[W00by]

Your opinion is valid, but it's not an objective statement. And if people are jumping to conclusions, I ask that you have patience with them, because a lot of them are probably scared. I don't know if you're a Viper main, but many of us spent weeks preparing for this job -- farming glamours, preparing hotbars, even logging out in the right spot to get the job as fast as possible. Speaking from my own anecdotal experience, I was already worried Viper was going to be far too easy just from what was shown at the media tour, which is why I was so happy to find it so engaging -- and it's also part of why I'm so worried that any level of easing its difficulty will turn it into something I personally don't find fun. We had the job for less than a week, so the changes are frightening based on the precedent that's been set.

This expansion, players lost complexity in Black Mage, Monk, Dragoon, Astrologian, and the devs seem to have tried to do it to Reaper by getting rid of double enshroud (though they seem to have failed in that regard). Last expansion, players lost pretty much all the complexity in Summoner, and they didn't do anything to add it back after years of complaints about Summoner. Therefore, people are worried that after six days, Viper is already on the chopping block when they found it fun.

I agree with you that Viper is perhaps a bit harder to jump into and play than other melees. I am aware of my own skill level and that it does not apply to the average player. But when there are already so many approachable jobs, is it so wrong to want Viper to stay a little more engaging? Players like us have almost no where to go if we want that challenge.

And don't get me wrong, I completely understand that there are some very unhelpful comments in these threads. I encourage anyone speaking in respects to Viper, either for or against, to explain their opinions with detailed and respectful reasons why. The devs need that kind of thing to decide what changes they want, so just screaming into the wind isn't helpful.

[Kazimere]

I main reaper. It’s just a more well rounded job, imo. I’ll back up with viper, cause the play is so good. I don’t want it to lose engagement either. Having said that, it does have some issues, and those are mostly relegated to the filler and the auto swap nature of the combo. The gap closer is garbage and it needs a defensive as well, but that’s just me.

[W00by]

Totally agree with you on the gap closer! That's one of the changes I think would be welcome, honestly. Slither is really hard to use with the fast GCD and it's got a clunky and long animation lock that feels bad with all of Viper's OGCDs. Hopefully we get something better!