Please don't change Viper

[DES_VII]

Just leave the job be. Its a simple class and its only been out less than a week. The job is well done and designed. I love it and want to main it.
Do not patch Viper because of a handful of ppl that probably just started playing it and won't read. All in all if the button if flashing press it. If its green Flank if its red it rear.
Wow such a hard job to play.

[Bright-Flower]

If the change is just 'remove positionals from the Coil' abilities I can live with that. I really hope they don't strip down the rotation itself or remove ogcds etc.

[Zhirae]

THIS.. Please. Not every character needs to be a brain dead snoozefest. This class isn't even that hard. I'm actually just going to stop playing if they do this because it's just getting bad at this point.

[ValStormbreaker]

Probably too late after the lodestone post, but this community is getting embarrassing at this point. From Healer “strikes” to repeating the trend of forcing changes that nobody actually wants. Complaining about Viper after it releases for 5 minutes is why WHM doesn’t have Cleric or why role responsibility hardly exists outside savage.

They need to let us sit with the job as is for at least a month after savage releases. People who are upset about Viper need some more time with it, it hasn’t even been out a week from official launch. If Viper gets watered down and people complain, it’s our own fault. I implore SE and the dev team at CU3 to hold off and for us collectively to be patient and apply a little more dedication to understand the job as it is.

Agreed wholeheartedly, though in all fairness, Cleric Stance was actually pretty bad. And as much as I dislike job homogenization, if WHM were more like an inverted BLM in the sense that it needs to go back and forth between an outgoing healing rotation and a DPS rotation to recover MP, you'd see not only the skill floor of WHMs go up, but they'd be much more amenable to trying out something like BLM since it'd be conceptually similar. The same goes with SCH and SMN; if SCH was the fairy summoner, and they swapped to SMN and SMN had its Titan egi as a tank with a health bar, it'd be a good way to ease healer players into the DPS equivalent through presenting SMN in a way that's conceptually familiar to them on entry, and then expands with things like Garuda for AoE mobbing and Ifrit for single-target attacks.

THIS is what I would call the RIGHT way to approach accessibility for "passive players", WITHOUT having to dumb the DPS jobs down. You PRESENT the job in a way that's familiar and easy to understand, and THEN you can gradually scaffold more stuff on top of that. It's not about making it "simpler" for the "casuals,". That's the wrong approach to making something "accessible" and history has shown it never works.

I'm okay with jobs being grouped into "families" with similar playstyles like this. Hell, if the class system got a rework, we could do the SCH/SMN thing and start bundling some of the jobs into "astral" and "umbral" paths/tracks for job progression on the same class, so they could thematically have a similar "core," whether mechanically or even just conceptually, so players can have a bit of horizontal progression and try out different "flavours" of the same idea, or with a similar play style but used in different ways/for different purposes whilst maintaining individual identity. PLD/DRK for Gladiator, MNK/VPR for Pugilist, WAR/GNB for Marauder, WHM/BLM as the "conjurer" and "thaumaturge" paths for "Mage" with RDM in-between and perhaps enabling cross-classing skills between the two (which we used to have in this game to a limited degree but was removed a while back), etc.

To me, that's not exactly making the jobs "homogeneous," it's offering opportunities for players to flex comfortably as needed without having to sacrifice their favourite play style all that much.

[ValStormbreaker]

If the change is just 'remove positionals from the Coil' abilities I can live with that. I really hope they don't strip down the rotation itself or remove ogcds etc.

No, those should stay. It's literally a step to one side and a step to the other. It's not hard, so nobody would be okay with that. Allowing that is the slippery slope MNK mains already dealt with, and we're having this conversation because not enough people stopped it back then. Let's learn from the mistakes of history. No positionals should be removed at all!

[ValStormbreaker]

I couldn't agree more, I've heard people complain that Viper is too busy in terms of its rotation but I'd argue that's what makes it fun and unique. Viper is the first job in a while that's actually requires my brain to be active and attentive to my decision making. For the people that don't enjoy that kind of play style there a plenty of other jobs that will fill your needs, we don't need another homogenized Job. Leave Viper alone for the moment we need more time to see where it cracks before requesting adjustments.

Technically-speaking it's way more brain-dead and has a lot more hand-holding than MNK from SHB and earlier. DPS jobs now LITERALLY have guidance mechanics with the dotted-line marquee which tell you what button to push when one of your buffs has a timer that's starting to run low. It's insulting that they don't even trust the players to make a decision with their own agency. If MNK from even SHB (which was considered dumbed down for casuals even back then) were to be considered like a BMX bike, VPR is like a tricycle with training wheels attached to it.

I think this thread overall is proof that - had it been presented better in the tool tips - everyone here would have loved Stormblood MNK. Yet, demands to simplify that job were the culprit for why we're here today. VPR is accessible to a wider audience now than MNK was back then, so I'm going to implore everyone here to learn from the mistakes of history lest we be doomed to repeat them. Let what happened to MNK from 5.x onward be the lesson of what's likely to happen to not only VPR, but all other DPS jobs, if we don't push hard to get SE to reverse course on this.

[ValStormbreaker]

THIS.. Please. Not every character needs to be a brain dead snoozefest. This class isn't even that hard. I'm actually just going to stop playing if they do this because it's just getting bad at this point.

Ultimately this is what has to happen. Players need to put their money where their mouths are and actually withdraw financial support in large enough numbers and pull a "Helldivers 2" to make them listen.

This is why - as much as I thought the Healer Strike was incredibly self-indulgent and entitled behaviour from the game's most passive of players - I do now think there's merit to a DPS strike. We cannot allow this to continue.

I have at least put my money where my mouth is and did quit the game for 4 years, ONLY coming back to see the damage done to MNK and ONLY choosing to stay because of VPR. If VPR is gone, then I've lost my incentive to continue playing. It's not like there's all that much game left, with all of four job stones (one for each of the roles) remaining and that's a sign the game is winding down to its end anyway.

[JamsC]

Ultimately this is what has to happen. Players need to put their money where their mouths are and actually withdraw financial support in large enough numbers and pull a "Helldivers 2" to make them listen.

This is why - as much as I thought the Healer Strike was incredibly self-indulgent and entitled behaviour from the game's most passive of players - I do now think there's merit to a DPS strike. We cannot allow this to continue.

I have at least put my money where my mouth is and did quit the game for 4 years, ONLY coming back to see the damage done to MNK and ONLY choosing to stay because of VPR. If VPR is gone, then I've lost my incentive to continue playing. It's not like there's all that much game left, with all of four job stones (one for each of the roles) remaining and that's a sign the game is winding down to its end anyway.

Ah. Now that it’s happening to your job, it’s different and a strike is merited. That is entertaining. Please do continue to amuse me by expanding on why a DPS strike is merited, but a healer strike is self indulgent and entitled. I need something to do while waiting on the snek to spawn.

[ValStormbreaker]

Ah. Now that it’s happening to your job, it’s different and a strike is merited. That is entertaining. Please do continue to amuse me by expanding on why a DPS strike is merited, but a healer strike is self indulgent and entitled. I need something to do while waiting on the snek to spawn.

Actually it happened to my job Monk for 3 expansions in a row, and entitled healers complaining back in 2017 were the reason! They were the ones who whined loudest it was too difficult for them, along with other melee DPSes. They were also the ones who whined that they wanted their own DPS kit to be simplified! And then they got what they asked for, and THEN they had a strike to demand they get their DPS kit back, and part of that strike was for DPSes to lose sustainability put into their own kit to compensate for most of you not being able to play at our level!

So after 7 years of healers being entitled, demanding that the game be simplified for THEM, it finally came for all the other DPS jobs to the point where Viper was literally the last interesting melee DPS job left!

And NOW, YOU PEOPLE are coming for it, too! So now, EVERYONE ELSE took notice (a good SEVEN YEARS after MNK mains warned this would happen) because all the people who weren't playing MNK back when you people started all this had the jobs THEY were playing hit by this, too! And they DO NOT want you people to ruin the last thing we have left.

So yes, my point DOES in fact still stand! YOU are the entitled ones demanding changes, WE are just asking to be LEFT ALONE because we know no matter how much you try to bring us down to your level, you're not going to bother playing the job for more than 5 minutes before moving on while the rest of us have our fun spoiled!

If you don't understand the distinction between the Healer Strike (which was a situation of your own making) and THIS situation (which is also a situation of your making, inflicted outside of your role onto others sociopathically) which is us asking for you to leave us alone, then you are a shining example of the problem and the entitlement of healers. If you do not understand it is NOT entitlement to say that none of us asked for this, and we don't want you forcing this on us, then you lose any shred of moral high ground here. Thank you for proving my point for me, about the kinds of entitled players you healers are.

Garlemald should've burned Gridania to the ground long ago.

[Zhirae]

Ultimately this is what has to happen. Players need to put their money where their mouths are and actually withdraw financial support in large enough numbers and pull a "Helldivers 2" to make them listen.

This is why - as much as I thought the Healer Strike was incredibly self-indulgent and entitled behaviour from the game's most passive of players - I do now think there's merit to a DPS strike. We cannot allow this to continue.

I have at least put my money where my mouth is and did quit the game for 4 years, ONLY coming back to see the damage done to MNK and ONLY choosing to stay because of VPR. If VPR is gone, then I've lost my incentive to continue playing. It's not like there's all that much game left, with all of four job stones (one for each of the roles) remaining and that's a sign the game is winding down to its end anyway.

Yeah, I did. wasn't a strike. I just didn't play for over half a year because the game was boring. I like all the roles and it has just been a gradual downgrade to the experience and quite frankly I'm at the limit. I've loved this game for over a decade now and I'm ready to hang it up if things don't start changing in a better direction. It's not as bad as World of Warcraft yet, but it IS the reason I quit that game a long time ago and will be the reason I quit this one. I just can't justify paying a sub to a game that puts me to sleep.

At the end of the day, they've used the same cookie cutter end game formula since as far back as I my ADHD addled gold-fish tiered brain can remember and the only real long term staying power is keeping the classes interesting enough to keep playing through the meager content updates in between big patches.

And as for the healer strike, also justified. Not every healer should be put to the stake for the changes made due to people complaining. I used to main healer and loved it, I miss it and feel the complaints are warranted. Tanks should put their foot down too with all the homogenization and stripping of any identity or individuality of their classes and play style. The issue is that SE wants to cater to the common denominator, because every complaint from every slub on Reddit who can't be bothered to learn how to play a video game is a potential sub loss to them.