Please don't change Viper

[noelregnard]

I'll play whatever I jolly well please and I ain't budging from right behind the boss unless I need to get out of some mechanics.

Then don't do them. They don't affect you anyway. Leave them there for the people who enjoy them.

[JamsC]

Actually it happened to my job Monk for 3 expansions in a row, and entitled healers complaining back in 2017 were the reason! They were the ones who whined loudest it was too difficult for them, along with other melee DPSes. They were also the ones who whined that they wanted their own DPS kit to be simplified! And then they got what they asked for, and THEN they had a strike to demand they get their DPS kit back, and part of that strike was for DPSes to lose sustainability put into their own kit to compensate for most of you not being able to play at our level!

So after 7 years of healers being entitled, demanding that the game be simplified for THEM, it finally came for all the other DPS jobs to the point where Viper was literally the last interesting melee DPS job left!

And NOW, YOU PEOPLE are coming for it, too! So now, EVERYONE ELSE took notice (a good SEVEN YEARS after MNK mains warned this would happen) because all the people who weren't playing MNK back when you people started all this had the jobs THEY were playing hit by this, too! And they DO NOT want you people to ruin the last thing we have left.

So yes, my point DOES in fact still stand! YOU are the entitled ones demanding changes, WE are just asking to be LEFT ALONE because we know no matter how much you try to bring us down to your level, you're not going to bother playing the job for more than 5 minutes before moving on while the rest of us have our fun spoiled!

If you don't understand the distinction between the Healer Strike (which was a situation of your own making) and THIS situation (which is also a situation of your making, inflicted outside of your role onto others sociopathically) which is us asking for you to leave us alone, then you are a shining example of the problem and the entitlement of healers. If you do not understand it is NOT entitlement to say that none of us asked for this, and we don't want you forcing this on us, then you lose any shred of moral high ground here. Thank you for proving my point for me, about the kinds of entitled players you healers are.

Garlemald should've burned Gridania to the ground long ago.

For me, your accusation that healer mains passively accepted the gutting of our role displays your ignorance of the issue. I would recommend visiting the healer forums and looking back over the many, many objections that were made to the simplification of healing. We were standing shoulder to shoulder with the monk mains as canaries in the coal mine.

Also, just for your interest, I don’t want Viper to be changed. I think melee DPS mains deserve a job with complexity, to allow them all the fun that comes from skill expression. And I fully support anyone who says that Monk mains have been treated shoddily since Heavensward. You deserve better from a game that you pay a monthly sub for.

But I cannot take seriously the hypocrisy of someone arguing that healer mains have no right to complain or strike because they are entitled whiners, but that DPS mains with exactly the same complaints are justified and righteous in their anger. I mean, are you for real with that?

[ValStormbreaker]

I'll play whatever I jolly well please and I ain't budging from right behind the boss unless I need to get out of some mechanics.
If positionals are the only thing making DPS fun for you, then that's your own fault.
Having to move in between weaving skills ruins my rhythm.

*sigh* Alright, it's clear you lack a bit of self-awareness, so let me spell this out for you:

You - a tank main - are coming into the DPS forums and telling the melee DPS mains the way they like their role to play is a problem, because you personally - and by your own admission - cannot handle the multitasking of your rotation and the positionals. Ergo, you can't play up to the level of the rest of us, and are telling us that requiring you to do more than your current skill capacity is the problem, so the game should be brought down to your level at the expense of literally everyone else's fun.

For the record, you are coming into a thread of 18 pages filled to the brim of people who clearly do not agree with you. And since you don't main melee DPS, it'd be like if a tourist comes into a foreign country and starts demanding they change their local customs to suit the tourist's tastes, or it's the locals who are a problem. This is the living definition of entitlement behaviour.

Social skills, my good sir. Read the room. You have 15 other options that might be more to your liking, and not everything needs to cater to you. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the fire, it's not for you. The rest of us are fine either with the temp where it is, or want it to be turned up, because your speed is too slow and boring for us. We are not coming into your house and telling you to speed things up, so don't come into our territory and demand that we slow things down for you. Simple as that.

[vois]

Please DO NOT CHANGE VIPER!!!. Give it at least a patch or 2 before changing this job. The rotation is intuitive and smooth. The gameplay pace and rotation is unique and distinct from the other melee job. Please give it a patch or 2 before consider the change. Thank you.

[AngaratoSvartberg]

I'll play whatever I jolly well please and I ain't budging from right behind the boss unless I need to get out of some mechanics.
If positionals are the only thing making DPS fun for you, then that's your own fault.
Having to move in between weaving skills ruins my rhythm.

if you wanna be mediocre that's fine but that doesnt mean we have too.

[ValStormbreaker]

snip

Again, you misunderstand the entire issue by virtue of thinking these complaints are exactly the same, but due to some important context you're leaving out, they are not. Since you have trouble understanding this basic concept, I'm going to break it down for you in the following points:

1) The request to simplify healers came from within the healer community itself. It did not come from people who play other roles. DPS players weren't the ones who requested the removal of Cleric Stance, that was all healers.

Healer jobs in this game are regarded by most other players as the most passive of the roles, and that doesn't naturally attract personalities who get their adrenaline rushes from being right up in the boss-monster's face beating it with their fists at high speeds with high-risk, high-reward gameplay.

Melee DPSes aren't the types to demand healers be simplified for them. If anything, we find the role too boring and that makes us incredibly averse to flexing even to fill static needs for Savage raids. Finding competent healers for high-end duty content is slim pickings because it's the lowest-population role with the highest rate of passive players.

Am I saying that healers as a whole unanimously wanted this? Of course not! I know many healers who disagreed with the simplification. That does not change the fact that it was a problem born out of your community; it wasn't us trying to come in and demand healers be made easier so we could have a more accessible barrier for entry.

2) In order for the situation to be the same as you described, and for me to be a hypocrite, then this situation would have to have been at the behest of melee DPSes who asked for the jobs to be simplified. It was not.

Again, the role does not naturally attract passive players due to the aggressive, high-risk/high-reward nature of its gameplay, especially with regard to high speed, high-APM jobs. Does this mean passive DPS players don't exist? Of course not, but the population distribution is significantly lower, less vocal and far less behaviourally entitled than healers tend to be on average. I've dealt with passive players of all roles as a static leader, and healers were always the #1 source of behavioural entitlement by a very, very wide margin, and always to the worst degrees.

So who was responsible? Healer mains, who were complaining that melee DPSes had too high a barrier for entry and that the job needed to be simplified to make it more accessible to them. I know this to be fact because I was right here on the forums in 2019 and it was all WHM and SCH mains demanding our role be simplified in the name of giving them a barrier for entry. AST mains I at least had some respect for since most of the ones I knew thought this was stupid.

3) There's a difference between striking due to a problem of your own community's creation, and pre-emptively and defensively striking due to an external force imposing their will onto your community. Those are not the same. There's a clear distinction between crying over the consequences of your own actions, and complaining about an external colonizing force trying to impose its will onto others. This was the crux of my argument you conveniently ignore.

This is why, if you have to simplify the situation down to "we're striking over the simplification of our roles, therefore it's hypocritical of you to say it's entitled when we do it but not when you do it," you're effectively missing the forest for the trees. Healer simplification is a problem of the healer community's own making. The DPS simplification? We didn't do this to ourselves. This was forced on us by demands from the outside. That's an important distinction.

4) What's entitled about the healer strike is the lack of self-accountability about it. It blames the devs for the direction they took it in, but not the players within your community who asked for it. Conversely, DPS mains have overwhelming solidarity, and we do hold our own accountable, this thread being a great example.

[ValStormbreaker]

if you wanna be mediocre that's fine but that doesnt mean we have too.

I could kiss you for this comment, but you're on an different data center :P

SteakDriven's post highlights my point to JamsC. He is a tank main coming in to a melee DPS role forum and telling us that our role is a problem because he finds it difficult to multitask mechanics. It "ruins [his] rhythm,". Us being able to handle it is "[our] own fault. So we're the problem for actually being able to play more competently than he can, the implication being that our fun should be neutered to bring things down to his lower skill level.

This is not something any of the melee DPS mains are saying. It's all coming from passive players on the outside, historically coming from WHM and SCH players, but always from lower-APM job mains who think taking a step to the left, doing a few moves, then taking a step to the right and doing a few moves, is somehow too much for their comfort.

Entitlement is when you act as though you are deserving of special treatment or privileges, i.e. coming into someone else's house and demanding they do things your way. This is why the Healer Strike was entitled; it pushed blame on the devs for the design philosophy they adopted with the healers, but neglected the part where it was at the healers' request (even if not everyone shared those opinions). Melee DPS mains by and large did NOT ask for this, and are wholly opposed to it, but we do hold one another accountable, as I have already done by addressing the remarks of Mr. Happy calling for more downtime in Viper's rotation which is incredibly stupid and no one here in this thread seems to support that sentiment (if anything, it's the opposite). I have also addressed the damage Happy and Drak have caused to MNK. I'm not pretending there aren't problem people within DPS circles, but we at least acknowledge and deal with our own, instead of shirking accountability and blaming external sources. Players are the ones who asked for Cleric Stance to be removed, not the devs.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Positionals suck.

Crazy how FFXIV's encounter design is almost entirely designed around moving around and positioning to do mechanics yet people think moving two inches back and forth along the boss target circle is too much to ask or doesn't fit the design.

[Kahnopee]

Adding another voice to say that Viper is completely fine gameplay-wise.

[thanatos313]

Adding to the DONT change viper club.

Seriously it's already easy enough, I was looking up guides because its so simple I thought I was missing something.I was not.
The xpac JUST dropped, so dont change a class based on the kneejerk reaction of players that cant be bothered to hit a target dummy for 10 seconds.
Its simple and fast, thats a recipe for fun. Dont nerf the fun. Dont be blizzard.