Please don't change Viper

[JamsC]

Ultimately this is what has to happen. Players need to put their money where their mouths are and actually withdraw financial support in large enough numbers and pull a "Helldivers 2" to make them listen.

This is why - as much as I thought the Healer Strike was incredibly self-indulgent and entitled behaviour from the game's most passive of players - I do now think there's merit to a DPS strike. We cannot allow this to continue.

I have at least put my money where my mouth is and did quit the game for 4 years, ONLY coming back to see the damage done to MNK and ONLY choosing to stay because of VPR. If VPR is gone, then I've lost my incentive to continue playing. It's not like there's all that much game left, with all of four job stones (one for each of the roles) remaining and that's a sign the game is winding down to its end anyway.

Ah. Now that it’s happening to your job, it’s different and a strike is merited. That is entertaining. Please do continue to amuse me by expanding on why a DPS strike is merited, but a healer strike is self indulgent and entitled. I need something to do while waiting on the snek to spawn.

[ValStormbreaker]

Ah. Now that it’s happening to your job, it’s different and a strike is merited. That is entertaining. Please do continue to amuse me by expanding on why a DPS strike is merited, but a healer strike is self indulgent and entitled. I need something to do while waiting on the snek to spawn.

Actually it happened to my job Monk for 3 expansions in a row, and entitled healers complaining back in 2017 were the reason! They were the ones who whined loudest it was too difficult for them, along with other melee DPSes. They were also the ones who whined that they wanted their own DPS kit to be simplified! And then they got what they asked for, and THEN they had a strike to demand they get their DPS kit back, and part of that strike was for DPSes to lose sustainability put into their own kit to compensate for most of you not being able to play at our level!

So after 7 years of healers being entitled, demanding that the game be simplified for THEM, it finally came for all the other DPS jobs to the point where Viper was literally the last interesting melee DPS job left!

And NOW, YOU PEOPLE are coming for it, too! So now, EVERYONE ELSE took notice (a good SEVEN YEARS after MNK mains warned this would happen) because all the people who weren't playing MNK back when you people started all this had the jobs THEY were playing hit by this, too! And they DO NOT want you people to ruin the last thing we have left.

So yes, my point DOES in fact still stand! YOU are the entitled ones demanding changes, WE are just asking to be LEFT ALONE because we know no matter how much you try to bring us down to your level, you're not going to bother playing the job for more than 5 minutes before moving on while the rest of us have our fun spoiled!

If you don't understand the distinction between the Healer Strike (which was a situation of your own making) and THIS situation (which is also a situation of your making, inflicted outside of your role onto others sociopathically) which is us asking for you to leave us alone, then you are a shining example of the problem and the entitlement of healers. If you do not understand it is NOT entitlement to say that none of us asked for this, and we don't want you forcing this on us, then you lose any shred of moral high ground here. Thank you for proving my point for me, about the kinds of entitled players you healers are.

Garlemald should've burned Gridania to the ground long ago.

[JamsC]

Actually it happened to my job Monk for 3 expansions in a row, and entitled healers complaining back in 2017 were the reason! They were the ones who whined loudest it was too difficult for them, along with other melee DPSes. They were also the ones who whined that they wanted their own DPS kit to be simplified! And then they got what they asked for, and THEN they had a strike to demand they get their DPS kit back, and part of that strike was for DPSes to lose sustainability put into their own kit to compensate for most of you not being able to play at our level!

So after 7 years of healers being entitled, demanding that the game be simplified for THEM, it finally came for all the other DPS jobs to the point where Viper was literally the last interesting melee DPS job left!

And NOW, YOU PEOPLE are coming for it, too! So now, EVERYONE ELSE took notice (a good SEVEN YEARS after MNK mains warned this would happen) because all the people who weren't playing MNK back when you people started all this had the jobs THEY were playing hit by this, too! And they DO NOT want you people to ruin the last thing we have left.

So yes, my point DOES in fact still stand! YOU are the entitled ones demanding changes, WE are just asking to be LEFT ALONE because we know no matter how much you try to bring us down to your level, you're not going to bother playing the job for more than 5 minutes before moving on while the rest of us have our fun spoiled!

If you don't understand the distinction between the Healer Strike (which was a situation of your own making) and THIS situation (which is also a situation of your making, inflicted outside of your role onto others sociopathically) which is us asking for you to leave us alone, then you are a shining example of the problem and the entitlement of healers. If you do not understand it is NOT entitlement to say that none of us asked for this, and we don't want you forcing this on us, then you lose any shred of moral high ground here. Thank you for proving my point for me, about the kinds of entitled players you healers are.

Garlemald should've burned Gridania to the ground long ago.

For me, your accusation that healer mains passively accepted the gutting of our role displays your ignorance of the issue. I would recommend visiting the healer forums and looking back over the many, many objections that were made to the simplification of healing. We were standing shoulder to shoulder with the monk mains as canaries in the coal mine.

Also, just for your interest, I don’t want Viper to be changed. I think melee DPS mains deserve a job with complexity, to allow them all the fun that comes from skill expression. And I fully support anyone who says that Monk mains have been treated shoddily since Heavensward. You deserve better from a game that you pay a monthly sub for.

But I cannot take seriously the hypocrisy of someone arguing that healer mains have no right to complain or strike because they are entitled whiners, but that DPS mains with exactly the same complaints are justified and righteous in their anger. I mean, are you for real with that?

[ValStormbreaker]

snip

Again, you misunderstand the entire issue by virtue of thinking these complaints are exactly the same, but due to some important context you're leaving out, they are not. Since you have trouble understanding this basic concept, I'm going to break it down for you in the following points:

1) The request to simplify healers came from within the healer community itself. It did not come from people who play other roles. DPS players weren't the ones who requested the removal of Cleric Stance, that was all healers.

Healer jobs in this game are regarded by most other players as the most passive of the roles, and that doesn't naturally attract personalities who get their adrenaline rushes from being right up in the boss-monster's face beating it with their fists at high speeds with high-risk, high-reward gameplay.

Melee DPSes aren't the types to demand healers be simplified for them. If anything, we find the role too boring and that makes us incredibly averse to flexing even to fill static needs for Savage raids. Finding competent healers for high-end duty content is slim pickings because it's the lowest-population role with the highest rate of passive players.

Am I saying that healers as a whole unanimously wanted this? Of course not! I know many healers who disagreed with the simplification. That does not change the fact that it was a problem born out of your community; it wasn't us trying to come in and demand healers be made easier so we could have a more accessible barrier for entry.

2) In order for the situation to be the same as you described, and for me to be a hypocrite, then this situation would have to have been at the behest of melee DPSes who asked for the jobs to be simplified. It was not.

Again, the role does not naturally attract passive players due to the aggressive, high-risk/high-reward nature of its gameplay, especially with regard to high speed, high-APM jobs. Does this mean passive DPS players don't exist? Of course not, but the population distribution is significantly lower, less vocal and far less behaviourally entitled than healers tend to be on average. I've dealt with passive players of all roles as a static leader, and healers were always the #1 source of behavioural entitlement by a very, very wide margin, and always to the worst degrees.

So who was responsible? Healer mains, who were complaining that melee DPSes had too high a barrier for entry and that the job needed to be simplified to make it more accessible to them. I know this to be fact because I was right here on the forums in 2019 and it was all WHM and SCH mains demanding our role be simplified in the name of giving them a barrier for entry. AST mains I at least had some respect for since most of the ones I knew thought this was stupid.

3) There's a difference between striking due to a problem of your own community's creation, and pre-emptively and defensively striking due to an external force imposing their will onto your community. Those are not the same. There's a clear distinction between crying over the consequences of your own actions, and complaining about an external colonizing force trying to impose its will onto others. This was the crux of my argument you conveniently ignore.

This is why, if you have to simplify the situation down to "we're striking over the simplification of our roles, therefore it's hypocritical of you to say it's entitled when we do it but not when you do it," you're effectively missing the forest for the trees. Healer simplification is a problem of the healer community's own making. The DPS simplification? We didn't do this to ourselves. This was forced on us by demands from the outside. That's an important distinction.

4) What's entitled about the healer strike is the lack of self-accountability about it. It blames the devs for the direction they took it in, but not the players within your community who asked for it. Conversely, DPS mains have overwhelming solidarity, and we do hold our own accountable, this thread being a great example.

[ValStormbreaker]

Your post made no sense and just screams "ah yes please think I am smart look at the fancy words I can string together with no context or basis". Not to mention you contributed nothing to anything. Good job. You did good. Wow.

Exactly. He doesn't understand that the Healer Strike was a situation that happened because passive healers wanted the game simplified for them, got what they asked for, and then regretted it.

Meanwhile, DPS players are upset that the same aforementioned passive players wanted the game dumbed down for them because they wanted to be effort-averse, and that has hurt the game for the past 7 years, starting with Monk. Nobody came and defended the Monk mains then. Now it has spread to every other job, Viper is the last one left, so more people finally took notice and said "enough is enough, leave us alone".

Either he doesn't understand the fundamental difference between a DPS Strike on those grounds, or he's trolling. Either way, I expect no less from a healer main in this game at this point. The most passive of players are also the most toxic and have the least-developed sense of personal accountability or self-reflection. High-effort players tend to be more humbled because they have to work for their performance.