Please don't change Viper

[Elissar]

+1 in ten words
it's weird but excessive accessibility can be poisonous. You don't want to make a game soo comfortable that only bots will feel any emotion playing it.
VPR is nice, as main BLM, it's just like day and night.

[-BlueGreen-]

I'm of the opinion that something needs to change. As-is, Viper suffers from a general design problem that has existed even before 7.0, but until now no other class has been held back by it nearly as much. Twinblood/Twinfang don't just encourage double weaving, it's essentially a mandatory part of the rotation. The problem? Unless you have a low-latency connection, you can't double-weave without clipping your GCDs, and should you clip your GCDs, your DPS drops and your rotation drifts, likely causing misalignment of burst phases with party buffs as longer fights drag on. Bottom line: No amount of skill can overcome a problem brought on by a combination of game client limitations and connection latency.

The double-weaving problem isn't something new, of course, and from my understanding of how it impacted classes prior to 7.0, you could overcome the problem to some degree with adjustments in rotation to avoid double-weaving at a small cost to DPS and/or adjust gear SkS/SpS to achieve a higher than BiS speed to be compatible with your specific connection conditions. From what I understand, this resulted in either a nearly-neutral or only minor change in theoretical DPS. At the very least, you could play a class affected by this and still be viable in high-end encounters.

I'm doubting the viability of Viper under the same conditions. You can't currently decide to use other GCDs between twinblood/twinfang in order to avoid clipping your GCD, and dropping either of those will result in a fairly obvious DPS drop. I do realize that hunger's/swiftskin's coil both are 3.0 GCDs instead of 2.5 which helps in making double-weaving viable to more players on its own, but there's a problem: Swiftscaled. Even with no investment in SkS, Swiftscaled alone brings these to 2.55 seconds, and given that double-weaving can be problematic on RDM even without investment in SpS at around 2.5, I doubt that extra 0.05 seconds will mean anything, especially since given how gearing works, you probably won't be able to completely avoid SkS on viper and will have real speeds that are quicker (with just basic level 80 gear from the unlock quest and level 80 poetics accessories, I hit 2.51 with these).

Just to verify this was still a problem with 7.0, I moved a character over to OCE and, yeah, it's bad. The first attempt I made just barely didn't clip the GCD as far as I can tell, but as I repeated attempts, I kept clipping. I then realized it's due to the fact that the first attempt was without the Swiftscaled buff. Basically, once you get that buff, you'll clip GCD each time you go through the combo that refreshes the buff. As far as I can tell, this forces you to choose between the lesser of three evils:

* Drop either twinblood/twinfang (simple loss of 300 potency every 40 seconds)
* Allow the GCD to clip and do the rotation otherwise as normal (DPS loss depends on exact latency)
* Allow both Swiftscaled and hunger's instinct drop off before using Dreadwinder to rebuff them (likely a near-fixed DPS loss, but without running exact numbers I'm not sure if this is better or worse than the first option)

The double-weaving problem is nothing new, of course, it's just so obvious with Viper that it feels like something needs to change. That said, when I play this class on an NA world with my current connection, it seems fun, and I could get the hang of the positionals with practice. I totally get the reasoning behind most of the "Don't change Viper" sentiment, but I wouldn't be surprised if SE plans to address this specific concern. In terms of what they can do, I see 4 reasonably viable options:

1. Rework Swiftscaled into something else so that it isn't reducing GCD by 15%. Without that, the double-weaving is possible even playing across an ocean as I learned tonight.
2. Combine twinblood/twinfang into a single skill (combine the potency as well). This removes the obvious mandatory double-weaving in the rotation while leaving the balance of the class unchanged. This seems so simple of a change that it wouldn't surprise me that this is what SE will do even though I bet very few actually wants this.
3. Increase the 3.0 GCDs to something like 3.5 or even 4.0. This will require other adjustments to maintain the class balance but will make double-weaving more possible for more people (at least this specific instance of it). Of course, for people with fast connections, you get a small burst of buttons followed by a 1-1.5 second snooze before doing it again. I doubt this would feel good even if it is otherwise largely maintaining the current rotation.
4. Enhance the game client to make double weaving fully supported. I believe I've read about mods that effectively removed some/all of the mandatory timers the game client has to allow double-weaving on high-latency connections, but that doing so (in extremes) could allow players to do things that wouldn't be possible and could get them banned. An enhancement along these lines would likely fix the problem without needing a change to rotation for players who like it as it is while also throwing a bone to anyone who plays any other class with any number of double-weaving possibilities. This is the option I'd hope SE would actually take as it's all upsides and no downsides as far as I can tell, but I'm not optimistic about the odds they'll actually go this route given their history.

Basically, option 4 would allow fixing Viper without actually changing it and help other players/classes to boot. Too bad the odds aren't great they'll actually do that, though.

[Taliriah]

I'm of the opinion that something needs to change. As-is, Viper suffers from a general design problem that has existed even before 7.0, but until now no other class has been held back by it nearly as much. Twinblood/Twinfang don't just encourage double weaving, it's essentially a mandatory part of the rotation. The problem? Unless you have a low-latency connection, you can't double-weave without clipping your GCDs, and should you clip your GCDs, your DPS drops and your rotation drifts, likely causing misalignment of burst phases with party buffs as longer fights drag on. Bottom line: No amount of skill can overcome a problem brought on by a combination of game client limitations and connection latency.

The GCD for swiftskin's coil and hunter's coil is 2.51 seconds (with swiftscale up), ie 2510ms. If your ping is so bad that you can't send two ogcd uses during that time you have much bigger problems than playing Viper.

Or they are doing extremely silly things like waiting for the server to tell the client that the OGCDs are available rather than the client just assuming that they are (since there's no randomness or any particular rule to their activation). But if that's the case then they need to fix this, not change the class.

[-BlueGreen-]

The GCD for swiftskin's coil and hunter's coil is 2.51 seconds (with swiftscale up), ie 2510ms. If your ping is so bad that you can't send two ogcd uses during that time you have much bigger problems than playing Viper.

Or they are doing extremely silly things like waiting for the server to tell the client that the OGCDs are available rather than the client just assuming that they are (since there's no randomness or any particular rule to their activation). But if that's the case then they need to fix this, not change the class.

I did some speed tests to get some more specific data here:
Google speed test, server is 100 miles or so from where I live (central US): 310.5/20.6 Mbps speeds, 11ms latency.
speedtest.net test, server is in Sydney (close to OCE DC): 315.5/4.5 Mbps speeds, 184 ms latency. (I honestly expected worse latency, but 184ms isn't too bad considering the ocean between here and there)

Basically, I can comfortably do the double weaving on an NA world without issue. When I try to do the same on OCE, it fails miserably. The combination of ping and the animation locks creates the problem where double weaving simply doesn't work. Obviously, if I want to play at my best, I should play strictly on NA, but if I want to play with friends I've made, I play on OCE sometimes. For classes like RDM, I simply just don't try to double weave and can mostly play just fine even with the higher ping. With Viper, it'd be a disaster to try. Why should one class be singled out? That said, for the characters I actually plan to level viper on, they're all NA characters anyway.

My point is simply that with cross-region datacenter travel being a possibility between more regions later, an issue like this does need a solution. I play RDM differently between NA and OCE given the fact that double weaving doesn't work at that latency, but simply spreading out the OGCDs doesn't feel like it's really hurting my average DPS, it just makes things like the opener less bursty. Viper doesn't have an option to spread out those to OGCDs after the skills that activate that combo. You either go for them anyway and delay your next GCD by however much it delays you by, or you do something else weird, like making sure swiftscale drops off or simply skip the third hit in each of those combos. In other words, you either have the break the fast-pacing Viper was going for or you break the rotation.

My vote would be to use this opportunity to address the animation locks or whatever that cause issues with double weaving on any class with latencies in the 100-200ms range rather than to "dumb down" the rotation to remove the double weaving. Personally, I'm more in it so that RDM can feel the same no matter which server I play on, but Viper makes a better poster child for this since double weaving is (at least currently) a feature of its designed rotation. My fear is that SE will take the "easy" way out and change Viper's rotation. I can accept this possibility myself (the class becomes playable with such pings either way), though I recognize that many of the voices here obviously don't want this to happen.

100-200ms latencies shouldn't be outright disregarded as "you shouldn't play this game". For a decent chunk of NA (and even in other parts of the world), the reality is that pings in this range will be the best you can expect. The reason is simply that nice connections aren't available everywhere, and recently Starlink is shaping up to be the only real viable ISP for gamers in such areas. At present, the technology is extremely impressive at managing pings of ~125-150ms from what I remember measuring at my parents' place and Starlink is trying to get federal approval for even lower orbits to reach pings as low as ~100ms. It's easily the most expensive ISP serving most of those areas with your only other options being things like dialup (no joke) that can reach 50ms ping, but good luck with those 0.04 Mbps speeds, lol, traditional satellite and its 350-500ms pings (when this was my only other option, I literally signed up for dialup to play the MMO I was playing at the time using the Satellite for nothing more than downloading updates to overcome dialups bandwidth limitations), and cellular hotspots which also only manage 100ms or so latency and make absolutely terrible gaming routers (these hotspots also come so close to costing as much as Starlink that I don't see them lasting long as competition given how soundly Starlink beats them). Also bear in mind that the fastest of those alternatives vs. Starlink are having a great day if they can even reach 5% of Starlink's speeds.

Given the huge amount of coverage Starlink has (at least potentially) worldwide, I'd say SE's goal should be that all classes should be playable just fine on a Starlink connection to their local DC. There will still be some players/situations that won't be catered to at that level, but I'd expect that the few still not able to comfortably play at that point would just be too hard to make work to be worthwhile.

[Kalocin]

They stumbled upon a pretty good job design. They shouldn't touch it and instead should analyze why people like it so much and see what they can learn from it to improve other jobs.

I'm guessing the ones who design the new jobs are separate, those people are pretty solid. The problem is the kneejerk reaction changes. They even said they'd stop doing this but it always happens and whatever job is in the crossfire ends up being terrible for a while expansion because said designers can only handle making the new ones.

[AsuraAeon]

100% agree, as a melee main VPR is the breath of fresh air I needed. It is so fast and there are so many fun button presses, it is NOT too busy, it is perfect for what I want out of a class! It feels so good and it is designed so well!

Who even asked for these changes to VPR? Why are we removing fun gameplay mechanics? VPR is perfect as it is!

[Ariablueberry]

Seems like there are a few camps that are complaining about viper.

1. The casual player who likes viper's aesthetic (two swords, leather fantasy) - but finds it very difficult to play the job comfortably. They're staring at their hot bars + wondering about positional + high Actions per minute.

2. People who enjoy playing jobs at midcore to higher levels but have a habit of "memorizing" where they are in their rotation by which button they're pressing. (if my 1-2-3 combo is spread into different buttons, I know exactly where I am in my rotation without looking at anything else other than the boss and mechanics)

Viper's consolidation of the basic combo to 2 buttons that branch out to multiple combos means you're probably going to pay attention to either your buff icons/vipersight/hotbars to know where you are for your positionals/pre-burst window.

the consolidation gives them less ability to "memorize" where they are and that's uncomfortable.

3. a subset of players who just have general issues with trying to map hotbar/crosshotbar setup that makes their OLD logic of "oh this is how my logic is of hotbars/controller is setup for ALL my melee jobs -- then suddenly they have to do things a bit differently for viper and that makes them feel uncomfortable.

It is also the poster job of Dawntrail, so these subgroups want the job to match them because they're attracted to the job.

Given that Viper is the MOST PLAYED DPS JOB by a HUGE margin, it is natural that higher players = more complaints.

but alas:

"A JOB for everyone is a job for NO ONE"

We can always say they just need to get better at the game, but it doesn't change the fact that if so many of your players LOVE a job, that means they're playing the game and paying $$$$$ because they love the job.

so there's business pressure to do something about it if it's the most popular job you have or else you risk a buttload of people getting disappointed.

Talk about suffering from your marketing success at selling a game by selling a job fantasy.

No one is going to win this. They will make changes somehow to the job to make it more accessible to retain $$$$ subscribers.

it's a business decision ultimately.

[Gilihere]

Seems like there are a few camps that are complaining about viper.

1. The casual player who likes viper's aesthetic (two swords, leather fantasy) - but finds it very difficult to play the job comfortably. They're staring at their hot bars + wondering about positional + high Actions per minute.

2. People who enjoy playing jobs at midcore to higher levels but have a habit of "memorizing" where they are in their rotation by which button they're pressing. (if my 1-2-3 combo is spread into different buttons, I know exactly where I am in my rotation without looking at anything else other than the boss and mechanics)

Viper's consolidation of the basic combo to 2 buttons that branch out to multiple combos means you're probably going to pay attention to either your buff icons/vipersight/hotbars to know where you are for your positionals/pre-burst window.

the consolidation gives them less ability to "memorize" where they are and that's uncomfortable.

3. a subset of players who just have general issues with trying to map hotbar/crosshotbar setup that makes their OLD logic of "oh this is how my logic is of hotbars/controller is setup for ALL my melee jobs -- then suddenly they have to do things a bit differently for viper and that makes them feel uncomfortable.

It is also the poster job of Dawntrail, so these subgroups want the job to match them because they're attracted to the job.

Given that Viper is the MOST PLAYED DPS JOB by a HUGE margin, it is natural that higher players = more complaints.

but alas:

"A JOB for everyone is a job for NO ONE"

I agree with all you said, specially with the last part, this is not a job for everyone, and sure some people in all listed groups won't fit in the category viper is, that on itself doesnt mandate change

[W00by]

It's interesting, isn't it? For the most part, I understand a lot of the complaints with Viper from a subjective standpoint. There's nothing wrong with disliking a busy rotation or doing positionals. In my own case, I dislike Dark Knight's mana management and low impact "random stuff, go!" burst phase.

But if I dislike DRK, then why would I play it? I accept that people do like it and play GNB when I want to play Tank.

Viper, however, is in an interesting position because it doesn't have a core audience yet. Like every DPS launch, it's the most popular Job in the game, but it's hard to say how much of, and what part of, its audience will remain in 2 or 3 years when it's no longer shiny and another DPS comes in to steal the limelight. Will it be a job carried by aesthetic, left hyper approachable and simple for the casual player like RPR or SMN, or will it be a moderately difficult job with a highly dedicated midcore/hard-core audience like NIN or MNK? Both those audiences are playing the job, and as unfortunate as it is, it will be up to SQEX to decide which audience they decide to maintain. As midcore and up players, all we can do is argue our desires and pray.

Similarly unfortunately, the "a job for everyone is a job for no one" argument is historically not accurate. SMN is lambasted as incredibly boring by a mid core audience, but it has been the most popular caster for years despite RDM and BLM being more iconic and popular fantasies. WAR is the same for tanks, though you could argue part of that is carried by a popular class fantasy. Ultimately, player data suggests that easy classes are the most popular.

Whether or not they want to make Viper an incredibly popular job remains to be seen. Personally, I'm not sure the regional huntsman job will have long-term popularity, especially compared to things like Reaper and Samurai, but we'll see. I for one think skill expression is indelibly linked to it's class fantasy, but I'm a drop in the bucket.

Please keep arguing in favor of Viper retaining complexity, though! We will see if the devs have any comment on Tuesday.

[Ariablueberry]

It's interesting, isn't it? For the most part, I understand a lot of the complaints with Viper from a subjective standpoint. There's nothing wrong with disliking a busy rotation or doing positionals. In my own case, I dislike Dark Knight's mana management and low impact "random stuff, go!" burst phase.

But if I dislike DRK, then why would I play it? I accept that people do like it and play GNB when I want to play Tank.

Viper, however, is in an interesting position because it doesn't have a core audience yet. Like every DPS launch, it's the most popular Job in the game, but it's hard to say how much of, and what part of, its audience will remain in 2 or 3 years when it's no longer shiny and another DPS comes in to steal the limelight. Will it be a job carried by aesthetic, left hyper approachable and simple for the casual player like RPR or SMN, or will it be a moderately difficult job with a highly dedicated midcore/hard-core audience like NIN or MNK? Both those audiences are playing the job, and as unfortunate as it is, it will be up to SQEX to decide which audience they decide to maintain. As midcore and up players, all we can do is argue our desires and pray.

Similarly unfortunately, the "a job for everyone is a job for no one" argument is historically not accurate. SMN is lambasted as incredibly boring by a mid core audience, but it has been the most popular caster for years despite RDM and BLM being more iconic and popular fantasies. WAR is the same for tanks, though you could argue part of that is carried by a popular class fantasy. Ultimately, player data suggests that easy classes are the most popular.

Whether or not they want to make Viper an incredibly popular job remains to be seen. Personally, I'm not sure the regional huntsman job will have long-term popularity, especially compared to things like Reaper and Samurai, but we'll see. I for one think skill expression is indelibly linked to it's class fantasy, but I'm a drop in the bucket.

Please keep arguing in favor of Viper retaining complexity, though! We will see if the devs have any comment on Tuesday.

On job audience profiling - has there been information out there outlining who the current jobs were targeted at/catering to? Your take on whether or not Viper will have long term popularity compared to RPR/SAM is something I'd like to hear more about if you would care to explain more.