Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[Vyrerus]

While I don't expect perfection, I simply didn't enjoy the direction the MSQ took.

It's honestly the type of story that could have been written and executed a lot better. All that it needed was less focus on Llama Tea, and more focus on Krile, Koana, and Erenville. And to be more honest with how Tural fits in with the already established lore of Etheirys.

I remember face palming when an NPC was telling the WoL that they were up against great odds, and you have dialogue choices. One of the choices is something like, "Don't worry, I saved the Star once, you know!" And the NPC's response? "That's beyond the scope of what's going on here."

I'm sorry, but it makes zero sense that the Turali have been crossing the Salt for decades at this point, particularly the Mamool Ja, and they've even had one of their Blessed killed by the WoL(and some Tonberries to finish the job with a vengeance). We should be known, our reputation should precede us.

When we later make commentary one what Alexandria's situation is like/what it's been caused by, characters that know nothing about it should be all ears, not dismissive.

The desire to be less well known should be coursing through the WoL as a character, not something we're told the writers desire and then make so in a very clumsy manner with ham fisted new characters while the old are reduced to cardboard cut outs.

Everything about Tural was just Eorzea by another name. The Endless were just discount Cyberpunk Ascians, complete with Sphene being able to body hop and invalidate Otis's sacrifice. Solution 9 was just another shard Allag. Soul recycling for reraises and power level increase is just discount Resonance procedure. Tural Vidraal are just completely feral(as shown) Auspices which were just fill-ins for Primals.

And again, we see The Source invalidating Shard life and lifestyles, and even throwing lives away in Living Memory.

I guess one thing we could say is refreshing about Dawntrail is that the WoL and co. aren't heroes.

[Alleluia]

What in the actual fuck is this sentence?

Didn't you say at the beginning that WL absolutely has an character arc?
And now she has a "archetype that are never really changed ", literally confirming that our critizism regarding her missing growth was correct.

> registered since 2021
> 2445 posts

Guys, I think this might actually be an AI who is trained on forums.
I can't explain this nonsense any other way. A human wouldnt write this kind of sentences.

If that's the case, then cudos to the programmer. This is a very convincing Karen.

Alright, everyone calm down and stick to the topic, please. Personal attacks are unnecessary.

[Mansion]

Wuk Lamat and Koana are a similar-but-different thing; they're characters with very loud and broad initial archetypes that are never really changed or proven wrong, but the characters are proven to be deeper than that. It is a very 'theater' approach to writing a character, so I'm not surprised that's part of Hiroi's background, but I feel like there's distinct shades of shonen anime in it, too, which often have a very similar approach to characterization; pretty much the entire internet has seen the Naruto-style protagonist vibes in Wuk Lamat, but I'd also point out Koana has big Seto Kaiba energy, that 'self-assured genius with a plan for everything' style. Zero's very similar, too.

I have absolutely zero anime culture so I'll trust your words about it, but I do agree with the theater analogy to some degree, yes (european classical or antique greek/roman theater in particular). Yet I think the purpose (at least in theater) is a bit different. There isn't anything off Dawntrail that takes a deeper meaning of a new point of view, in my opinion.

I wouldn't call a lot of it 'one-dimensional' per se, but I think that you're observing something similar to what I have, that FFXIV has always been willing to write parts and characters to one single purpose, and to just make them really good at that purpose. Historically my examples have always been Vauthry and Nidhogg; they are little more than the things they appear to be right from the first moment you see them, but that's okay, because their role doesn't need anything deeper. Dawntrail has one of those, and I'd say it's Zoraal Ja; he's a brick-simple character, but he knocks the one thing he is right out of the park.

Indeed, but in my opinion there is something that doesn't work in Dawntrail, when it did work for the story up until then- although I'm not an Endwalker fan but it is more a Scions writing issue in my opinion. Maybe it is personal, I feel the motivations of most antagonists wouldn't hold any basic level debate given how shallow they are (but then, this would apply to real life politicians so...)
When I first met Vauthry or Nidhogg, I got the idea and accepted their motivations (Nidhogg especially holds on well even years later).
I can't say the same for Zoral Ja nor Sphene. Maybe the problem is that the story relies too much on these characters, when it could change the perspective and build itself on the world it creates.

[honest_psycho]

Alright, everyone calm down and stick to the topic, please. Personal attacks are unnecessary.

Fair enough.

Back to the topic then:
Why does my Pizza-Analogy earlier not apply to Wuk Lamat? (question to everyone)

You can present us the worlds best Pizza, but we don't wanna eat the same thing 4 times a day for en entire week.
I dont want a wikipedia article about the history of pizza or what goes into making one.

I wanted some other things besides Pizza.
I wanted fries, burgers, some salat, some fruit, you get the idea.

With DT, we ONLY got Pizza, with not enough soda to pour it down.

[Rannie]

Fair enough.

Back to the topic then:
Why does my Pizza-Analogy earlier not apply to Wuk Lamat? (question to everyone)

Hmmm maybe more of a "pizza" that's just raw uncooked dough with oil on it?

Ie disgusting and horrible and better thrown in the trash? *shrugs*

[Byron-Blackfyre]

Sphene's prime directive which is coded into her by the preservation is to protect her people and living memory at all costs. She strikes me more as a reluctant and tragic antagonist. She would not be able to change her nature even if she wanted to and we were finally able to release her from her burden. Zoraal Ja shouldered the weight of the world on his shoulders, people expected him to be a miracle. As the "resilient" son he failed to prove that his "birth" lived up to the expectations people had of him and that made him drown in self-doubt. Unlike his father and his siblings, he didn't rely on others properly because of his constant need to prove himself and find a sense of purpose. I think both characters have a reasonable drive behind why they end up doing what they do. As for Wok Lamat, she has several character flaws and ends up growing throughout the adventure so while I am not a big fan of her, I do think she got her shounen character arc after all.

[ZUZ]

The problem isn't that we got all that.

The problem is that Wuk Lamat is a textbook-case of "Mary Sue":

- Getting the majority of the screentime and dialog, making other characters severely underdeveloped (example: Zoraal Ja's goals and motivations are mentioned in like 10 lines in total) or Gabool Ja speedrunning his redemption arc in order to not steal WukLamats spotlight.

- getting plotarmor against Gabool Ja and half an army and taking him out, despite being fought off effortlessly before.

- No serious characterflaws (not likeing alpacas or being seasick doesnt count, or is even more embarassing, considering she's a 6'6 buff warrior, absolute cringe)

- She is never forced to do a morally grey decision, best example is with the red-armored HokYuj. Before they fight, some random fucking bird just attacks all of the sudden, so WukLamat can heroicly "save" her enemy and befriend them".
Imagine what kind of interessting dilemma she could have faced, if she had to kill in self defense, but her status as spotless hero is saved by coincidence, --> no character progession.

Textbook-case of "Mary Sue".

I liked Wuk Lamat but I strongly believe her character would of benefited from making questionable choices and morally grey decisions. It would of played into how she wasn't ready to become Dawnservant at the beginning of the MSQ.

[AlysanneVrannai]

Everything about Tural was just Eorzea by another name. The Endless were just discount Cyberpunk Ascians, complete with Sphene being able to body hop and invalidate Otis's sacrifice. Solution 9 was just another shard Allag. Soul recycling for reraises and power level increase is just discount Resonance procedure. Tural Vidraal are just completely feral(as shown) Auspices which were just fill-ins for Primals.

I agree a lot with this in particular.

The writing goes out of it's way a lot to tell me how different Tural is, how unique they are, yet a lot of it comes across as simply the same as Eorzea with a different coat of paint. Kettenramm being inserted in and barely anything coming of it was just sad.
It astounds me that there is not a single new thing here. Ala Mhigo felt more foreign, it at least had a new beast tribe.

When I come to a zone in Tural, my first thought should not be "Oh you have those here too?".

[Chasingstars]

I haven't done all of the sidequests yet, but was there any mention of the final days in tural?

[Fendred]

I've seen some people confused as to why Ottis sacrifices himself to save Sphene despite her being able to hop bodies. Ottis was one of multiple volunteers to create a process for transferring both the soul and memories of a person into a new body. These are referred to as first generation endless and are separate from the system. When they die, that is the end of them. Ottis then lived as an outcast for several hundred years, stating he didn't want to scare the princess with his new body. Several citizens mention that Sphene uses special gear to store her memories, so this is a common belief among her subjects and lines up with Ottis's understanding of the process at the time of the queen's conversion.

Ottis is not present when Zoraal Ja demonstrates the nature of this version of Sphene. After he does show up, his consciousness/awareness is then suppressed by a command from Zoraal Ja just before Sphene body hops back to the capital to save her people. So when he gives his all to protect Sphene, its because he genuinely believes she is a first generation endless like himself. How Zoraal Ja's command would affect Ottis who is separate from the system is the actual contradiction here.

That leaves two possibilities as to what happened to Sphene when the conservators attempted to turn her into an endless. Either they succeeded, thereby transferring BOTH soul and memories into a vessel. Or they failed, only capturing her memories. I will save us time by dismissing the later. The reason the gen one endless were not connected to the cloud was that the technology did not exist yet. That same technology is required for the current queen Sphene to function. The citizens react as though Sphene was always present and its common knowledge Sphene has "special gear" for backing up her memories. Given the limitations of the conservators at that time, Sphene must have been successfully transferred to a new vessel in both memory and soul. The tease of her crown in the ending could elude to this as well. One piece of information missing is when did the Living Memory come online?