I believe I finally understood why some people have issues with Dawntrail

[LalafellDown]

Honestly it's a matter of creativity. Being creative here means being able to solve those issues with the tools at hand. If FFXVI proved something is that Yoshida might have leadership skills, but his game design philosophy is as you say: safe and dated.

Take a look at how GW2 deals with the leveling part of the story: You get to do MSQ segments every 10 levels, and the level cap is 80. There's plenty of quests in those segments but most of them have gameplay in them. How do you level up? You do Hearts, which are essentially static FATEs that can be done only once per player and essentially act as yellow quests, presenting lore in a "show, don't tell" style; you can also participate in Events (FATEs with other name) and most importantly, exploring and discovering stuff, meaning that filling the map is actually satisfying and fun.

This particular style of storytelling world have worked wonders for DT and for the whole "vacation and adventure" narrative that was promised. You can't tell me they couldn't have done the same with the resources they have.

That’s why I still play Guild Wars 2. Their “fate” system is fun because the combat and open world is fun. Exploring the world is a treat. NPCs are voiced even though by the same voice actors it’s still perfect. Each map has limitless exploration and achievements to find. All events or fates paint a story on the map. The story in Guild Wars 2 doesn’t waste your time. I can’t count how many times I’ve replayed the main story and expansions.

FF14 wastes your time by with its bare bones world. Its strengths are in boss fight and dungeons. They got fates right in Bozjan Southern Front why don’t they take time to implement that into the base game? I’d rather have 2 maps in an expansion if they were filled with the way GW2 filled it’s maps.

[koko-on-da-forumz]

The story in Guild Wars 2 doesn’t waste your time. I can’t count how many times I’ve replayed the main story and expansions.

I agree with everything you said except for this line.

IBS and SotO are slightly below Dawntrail in writing quality, just shorter (except the DRM festival in IBS), and there were absolutely wastes of time in every main story. It gets away with it because even though the writing is laughable and boring in many places, it's at least fun to play. It's not a movie, you're doing things, even while the story is playing out. And if you don't like the story, you don't have to do it, you can go explore on your own and its honestly a perfectly reasonable and fulfilling way to play.

[Keumjo]

That’s why I still play Guild Wars 2. Their “fate” system is fun because the combat and open world is fun. Exploring the world is a treat. NPCs are voiced even though by the same voice actors it’s still perfect. Each map has limitless exploration and achievements to find. All events or fates paint a story on the map. The story in Guild Wars 2 doesn’t waste your time. I can’t count how many times I’ve replayed the main story and expansions.

FF14 wastes your time by with its bare bones world. Its strengths are in boss fight and dungeons. They got fates right in Bozjan Southern Front why don’t they take time to implement that into the base game? I’d rather have 2 maps in an expansion if they were filled with the way GW2 filled it’s maps.

I agree. What I think hurts FFXIV the most is its insistence on story completion for all the content they introduce with each expansion. Even if you story skip to the latest, you still have to go from zone to zone to unlock all the extra stuff like Mounts, Hard/Extreme dungeons, etc. There is very little content that you can do with friends who are not as far as you. Not to mention, they'll add stuff like Bozja/FATES/Deep Dungeons/Variant Dungeons/Island Sanctuary/Eureka/etc and give them attention when they release and then rarely revisit them to refresh drops/exp rates/add more content.

There is a lot of pressure on the story to make up for the many ways this game lacks in providing engaging gameplay outside of the MSQ.
At least when I jump into GW2/WoW these days after not playing them for a couple of years, I can still do a bunch of group content with my friends that's fun, challenging, and rewarding. I'm not immediately at a huge disadvantage for not being all caught up on the narrative.

[OliverQ]

My issues so far are largely the writing is weak compared to previous expansions, especially Shadowbringers. Some of the comments from the npcs are just absurd. Like a guy talking about how we must sally forth to some important place. Who says "sally forth"? Even more egregious is the use of a modern day tech term to describe a big part of the plot in the later quests. As soon as I heard them talking about uploading [spoiler bleeped], it totally broke my immersion. I get this expansion has some Sci-Fi elements, but I really didn't plan on visiting Apple headquarters in my Final Fantasy game.

My other issues are the beginning is too slow and lacks gameplay. It's several levels of almost entirely fetch quests and cutscenes. And while I think the dungeon/trial design is some of the best they've done so far, there are a few issues I'd like them to address with those. The bosses could use a few more mechanics. Most are like maybe 3 mechanics on a loop and some are super easy. And can we change up the formula to stop having every single boss use a raid wide as their first move? I don't understand that. It's literally every boss. Throw out some difficult AEs or a tank buster first. Mix it up. It's way too formulaic.

I haven't done the 100 trial yet, but the 99 trial is absolutely banger. Possibly the best they've ever done - at least on par with Barbariccia. More of that type of content please, and don't let ilevel trivialize it.

[Raikai]

To sum it up, it's probably the way the team does fetch quests.
I think YoshiP almost always goes for a safe route in order to not compromise the release date and the overall quality of the product, but that means there are corners to be cut for something to be released in proper time.

For example, mini-games are usually the same 2 or 3 like spotting waldo or playing hide and seek.

Now, let's us imagine an ideal scenario where the team has infinite resources and time:
- I never liked the story of FF7 (original or otherwise) but I enjoyed how they implemented a lot of mini-games for every small quest on 7 rebirth.
This might not be feasible on FFXIV if you have to re-use content since it's an MMO and there are some limitations to it, but man... It would have been great if every fetch quest had a mini-game associated with it feeling more like you are playing a small fun game instead of simply reading a text and moving from A to B.
For example, if gathering is required, maybe re-using mini-games from the golden saucer like "Out on a Limb" to cut down trees could be possible, or maybe things like simple (not so complex) jumping puzzle games like in GATEs, chocobo racing, etc~
Or even steal some ideas from Nintendo games? xD

There could or could not be harder options, but essentially enjoying the journey could potentially ease some of the worries of people who think the story is slow because you tend to focus on a smaller goal at a time.

Alas, I personally do not dislike slow burns and I understand this is too resource heavy for a team that is already trying to deal with a graphical update.
So I thought that this was probably the main reason some people had issues not only with the way some quests are done in FFXIV but also in FFXVI.

The issue is that XIV doesn't know (or can?) how to make 'common' quests more engaging. And then Dawntrail suffers because most of it's MSQ content is similar to those mundane quests. A Big problem is how devoid of life the world is. Barely anything to interact with.

[Aldath]

Not to mention, they'll add stuff like Bozja/FATES/Deep Dungeons/Variant Dungeons/Island Sanctuary/Eureka/etc and give them attention when they release and then rarely revisit them to refresh drops/exp rates/add more content.

There is a lot of pressure on the story to make up for the many ways this game lacks in providing engaging gameplay outside of the MSQ.

Look, I won't lie. I left GW2 because I have many gripes with it as an MMO, especially since it also has a big problem with dead content (Dungeons, Raids, S3 Living Story Maps), and it's exacerbated by the fact you need a large quantity of players to beat some of them, and worse, they're in a schedule.

That said... People told me that FFXIV had no problems with dead content, and here we are. ARR trials and dungeons? Only updated Castrum and Ultima and called it a day, the rest are so power crept they're not even fun. STB? Still better than ARR but we've been asking to give Shinryu the Ultima treatment and they just keep saying "oh we hear you" and doing nothing. ARs and Raids that aren't CT or Void Ark? I queue on Primal, during good days, as either tank or healer, and Ivalice/Nier raids still take 10 to 35 minutes to start. Optional dungeons and Trials? Let's be honest, how many people actually unlock those? You didn't start playing in time for Extremes? Go find a Discord group and wait about 2 hours to get people to join you. Bozja? There's more people running Dragon's Stand in GW2, and that's ancient, dead content.

And even if they've introduced measures to keep old content age through roulettes and Wondrous Tails, it's half assed. Honestly, people just runs the WT content unsynced, roulettes almost all the time drop you in the same content, and Ultimates take MONTHS to rotate.

[Fawkes]

It's a return to the ARR-to-Stormblood style dialogue where every cutscene is everyone standing in a circle and over-expousing at each other.

Like you'll see a thing happen, and an NPC will say exactly what happened, and then Alisae or whoever will be like "hold up, did that thing just happen?" and Alphinaud is like "only one way to be sure", and then you have to go run around and click on three things and come back and have a cutscene where they're standing in a circle like "alright let's discuss if the thing happened" and it's like a 10 minute long cutscene of them just repeating the same thing over and over when it was already beyond obvious what had happened from before any of them even started talking.

[CosmoBabylonia]

It's a return to the ARR-to-Stormblood style dialogue where every cutscene is everyone standing in a circle and over-expousing at each other.

Like you'll see a thing happen, and an NPC will say exactly what happened, and then Alisae or whoever will be like "hold up, did that thing just happen?" and Alphinaud is like "only one way to be sure", and then you have to go run around and click on three things and come back and have a cutscene where they're standing in a circle like "alright let's discuss if the thing happened" and it's like a 10 minute long cutscene of them just repeating the same thing over and over when it was already beyond obvious what had happened from before any of them even started talking.

They even re-used the stupid ARR dialogue music and sound effects.

[GrizzlyTank]

Zenos was a mistake. Too much moving away from the political stone of the story. Characters are great and all, but it's always been only one part of what makes ffxiv story good.

[elizeugba]

Honestly it's a matter of creativity. Being creative here means being able to solve those issues with the tools at hand. If FFXVI proved something is that Yoshida might have leadership skills, but his game design philosophy is as you say: safe and dated.

Take a look at how GW2 deals with the leveling part of the story: You get to do MSQ segments every 10 levels, and the level cap is 80. There's plenty of quests in those segments but most of them have gameplay in them. How do you level up? You do Hearts, which are essentially static FATEs that can be done only once per player and essentially act as yellow quests, presenting lore in a "show, don't tell" style; you can also participate in Events (FATEs with other name) and most importantly, exploring and discovering stuff, meaning that filling the map is actually satisfying and fun.

This particular style of storytelling world have worked wonders for DT and for the whole "vacation and adventure" narrative that was promised. You can't tell me they couldn't have done the same with the resources they have.

Please for the love of God let's not use the wacky GW2 base game MSQ system. I play GW2 since it's release back in 2012 and the change they made in the base game MSQ to be every 10 levels is one of the most hurtful things they did to new players, even anet admitted it wasn't a good choice. That is one of the biggest reasons why most ppl quit before lvl 80 in GW2.