Pictomancer is insanely overtuned and needs to be fixed before savage drops.

[Galvuu]

What also grinds my mind is how Smudge is 20s with a built-in sprint but WHM and SGE are stuck on 60s/45s. Even DNC's "En Avant" isn't that strong.
Pictomancer has too many strength, we're basically in a RPR 6.0 situation but even worse.

Smudge should become the standard for caster dashes. It actually really helps with quickly repositioning on the archetype with the most limited mobility due to, well, cast bars.
DNC's gap-closer doesn't matter nearly as much because DNC never really has this problem- they can just walk while doing damage. Smudge lets you "greed" a cast if you know what you're doing. If I could, I'd make Aetherial Manipulation a copy of Smudge. Feels great to use.
PCT, compared to its role, is stronger than RPR was. RPR wasn't even top melee dps, it was tied for first iirc when savage hit.
But I agree with the people saying that PCT is fine- it really is. The job is one of the hardest to push to 99%, you really need to know what you're doing. The problem is that the caster role is chronically underpowered. This was already a problem in EW, where melee uptime was free- RDM was extremely undertuned through the entire expansion. Now it's both RDM and BLM. I'd keep PCT where it is, bump BLM to outdo PCT in adps consistently, and bump RDM up to low melee levels. I know SE is never gonna let RDM overtake melees because of the raise, but at least keep it 2% under the last melee.
(You can construe a similar argument for physical ranged, but this thread is about casters. But you get the idea there too)

I'm deliberately ignoring SMN because SMN is an abomination in the role- it's more physical role than it's a caster, and it makes casters nearly impossible to balance. I actually think it needs another rework... but staying as it is, give it whatever damage BRD has.

With that in mind, the discrepancy becomes far more apparent. Picto is top DPS even amongst the melee. Where they to buff Black Mage to a comparable level, you'd legitimately have zero reason to bring any of the phys range since a double melee/caster comp would deal higher damage in spite of the party buff.

I haven't run the numbers yet, but I doubt this is true. If BLM became melee levels and what you're saying were true, then triple melee would already be optimal (since we're comparing BLM to a melee). People underestimate the multiplicative nature of raid buffs. But, again, until I go crunch logs, I cannot definitely say so- although never, in the history of the game, was running 0 physical range optimal (it literally never happened), and while physical ranged balance is pretty bad now, we've had other periods where it was basically comparably bad before.

[rewd]

Seeing as we have more data on this now, I'm curious why PCT isn't under more scrutiny. It's not like this is a job without utility. It has fairly good movement, a 60s recast 20% personal mitigation tool and a 90s recast 10% raidwide mitigation tool (that actually works on all damage types, unlike some tank raid mitigations). I don't even think Arcane Crest survived untouched for as long, last expansion. You essentially have a utility caster with extremely strong aDPS and rDPS.

I know that they want PCT to be represented in upcoming Savage clears, which requires it to essentially be unconditionally better than BLM in all respects given that it's competing without a Raise. But I'm surprised that they haven't dialed something back.

The two shields are mutually exclusive and iirc it's the only utility that actively punishes you if you misuse it, as you only get the CD reduction if the shield fully absorbs.

Casters are the squishiest role in the game and it can happen to die as RDM during a mechanic just because you don't have a personal shield and the healers/tanks didn't give you extra care. You are giving up a personal defensive (which is sorely needed on a caster) for a group defensive which, while good, isn't groundbreaking. Even in this PCT is very balanced. The comparison to Arcane Crest is not very good because this skill was absurdly OP. It was (and still is) a personal shield on a 30s CD that also AoE healed for 500p (!). PCT heals for less in two minutes.

You also got the caster role wrong. BLM has always been an unpopular job. Players won't flock to it even if it has great damage, especially because you need to be good at the job, otherwise it's easy to be a burden (which is not the case for SMN/RDM). If you want to guarantee that PCT is played in Savage, then you make it stronger than RDM/SMN, which is how it is supposed to be anyway.

It's the same situation as WHM vs AST. AST gets easier and stronger with every expansion, and yet it is still the least played healer by a huge margin. WHm is once again the weakest healer but also the most played one.

[Lyth]

I think it depends on how you believe PCT should be positioned relative to other Casters and other DPS. VPR was deliberately released without any job-specific utility tools (including personal defensives), so the only thing the job has of value is damage. The job is fragile, but you have to deal with it. A lot of this comes down to the fact that when RPR was released last expansion, a lot of players objected to a job providing utility in addition to high damage. Arcane Crest is one of the few instances in the game where a direct nerf was issued. I think if you want to justify PCT's current levels of aDPS and rDPS, then it can't offer any utility whatsoever, including personal defensives. I'll bet there are some tank jobs that would love to have access to that sort of 90s raidwide barrier, especially given that it works on all damage types.

It's fine to give Casters more movement abilities, but I think Smudge is better than a lot of current melee movement tools, when you consider that it's targetless movement and a speed boost on only a 20s recast. The only time that's not going to optimal is if they do another UAV mechanic at some point. I think if they're going to give this sort of movement to a Caster job, then targetless fixed-distance gap closers should probably be the standard across the board.

The tricky thing about Casters in general is the situation around Raise. Progression groups are still going to tend to take a Raise Caster initially regardless of setup, purely for the sake of seeing more mechanics. That may get swapped out if you hit an enrage, but you'll generally complete the lockout unless you're significantly off and there's nothing else you can really tighten up. That means if you're running a single caster, then you want PCT to be all that more enticing than BLM to justify it's use. They've basically pulled out all the stops short of giving it Raise to ensure that it gets used in raid, be it as double caster, or as your swap-in choice from your progression caster job for when you hit enrage.

[Sequora]

Why though? PCT is below SAM and VPR for aDPS. Selfish jobs don’t have to be at the top of every category. It’s literally the reason we use other metrics to determine job balance.

And to your second point, there’s no reason double caster shouldn’t or can’t be a thing. PCT has similar utility to jobs like RPR and MNK. There’s no reason it shouldn’t be dealing as much damage as those jobs. Truthfully, melees have more mobility than casters in most fights. Maybe we should consider giving them some kind of mobility tax. It wouldn’t be as harsh as the tax for physical range of course, but the developers seem pretty set on keeping these huge bosses that take up most of the arena.

[CKNovel]

Smudge should become the standard for caster dashes. It actually really helps with quickly repositioning on the archetype with the most limited mobility due to, well, cast bars.

But I agree with the people saying that PCT is fine- it really is. The job is one of the hardest to push to 99%, you really need to know what you're doing. The problem is that the caster role is chronically underpowered. This was already a problem in EW, where melee uptime was free- RDM was extremely undertuned through the entire expansion. Now it's both RDM and BLM. I'd keep PCT where it is, bump BLM to outdo PCT in adps consistently, and bump RDM up to low melee levels. I know SE is never gonna let RDM overtake melees because of the raise, but at least keep it 2% under the last melee.

I definitely agree with both your points, mobility tools for caster makes sense being short.

Same goes for DPS, Picto would be fine if other casters were on this level. The problem lies within the role of the job.
I think SMN would be okay at low melee level, as long as PCT and BLM are slightly higher. If we balance too much around difficulty, we would have too much gaps.
SMN could be the castless caster that doesn't have tools to move around, RDM would need one in exchange.

That said, PCT would still deserves an adjust on AoE situations, increase the splash reduction.

[Supersnow845]

Why though? PCT is below SAM and VPR for aDPS. Selfish jobs don’t have to be at the top of every category. It’s literally the reason we use other metrics to determine job balance.

And to your second point, there’s no reason double caster shouldn’t or can’t be a thing. PCT has similar utility to jobs like RPR and MNK. There’s no reason it shouldn’t be dealing as much damage as those jobs. Truthfully, melees have more mobility than casters in most fights. Maybe we should consider giving them some kind of mobility tax. It wouldn’t be as harsh as the tax for physical range of course, but the developers seem pretty set on keeping these huge bosses that take up most of the arena.

Yeah I don’t understand why the only jobs who are “allowed” to be at the top of rDPS are VPR SAM or BLM when they are already at the top of aDPS

Like why is it so bad that when you combine the pDPS of a job with its raid buff it exceeds the aDPS of a selfish job

[ForteNightshade]

Yeah I don’t understand why the only jobs who are “allowed” to be at the top of rDPS are VPR SAM or BLM when they are already at the top of aDPS

Like why is it so bad that when you combine the pDPS of a job with its raid buff it exceeds the aDPS of a selfish job

Because the whole purpose of selfish jobs is their "utility" is raw damage. If another job can do comparable numbers but offer raid buffs, a personal shield and range flexibility, it becomes objectively better at pretty much everything.

Keep in mind, cDPS is the better metric to use when comparing jobs against one another per FFlogs own description. For reference sake, cDPS is essentially aDPS + damage you received from other players excluding single target padding (Dance Partner and Astro cards)

cDPS allows you compare how well you and your raid played into burst windows and AOE buffs. It's a good way to look at job balance between each other, and seeing which jobs have strong buffs while also providing good damage during other job's AOE buff windows.

Using this metric, Picto absolutely dominates every single fight in the game thus far—pulling noticeably ahead of both Samurai and Viper in all but two fights where it either just barely trails the former or is roughly tied with both. That's simply way too strong for a job with both raid utility and range flexibility. If Black Mage were brought up to this level, you'd equally have to buff both Red Mage and Summoner otherwise even the raise wouldn't be worth taking either. This, in turn, causes issues with the Prange who are already far too weak as it is. There's serious discussion double Melee/Caster (assuming BLM buff) would be superior despite a full loss of 1%. So they now need to be buffed.

In other words, SE either needs to buff six jobs or slightly nerf one. And if they do go for the former, it means in any potential downtime heavy fight like what M3 looks to be, double melee is objectively worse in every way. That isn't to say I don't think double Caster should be a viable option. It should but there's a difference between being viable and just outright better. Jobs like Dragoon, Ninja and even Reaper couldn't compete with a buffed Black Mage to Picto levels.

[ShadowNyx3]

If Pictomancer is doing too much damage then the only job that's a problem for is Black Mage which has been long confirmed to be getting buffs in 7.05.

[Supersnow845]

Because the whole purpose of selfish jobs is their "utility" is raw damage. If another job can do comparable numbers but offer raid buffs, a personal shield and range flexibility, it becomes objectively better at pretty much everything.

Keep in mind, cDPS is the better metric to use when comparing jobs against one another per FFlogs own description. For reference sake, cDPS is essentially aDPS + damage you received from other players excluding single target padding (Dance Partner and Astro cards)



Using this metric, Picto absolutely dominates every single fight in the game thus far—pulling noticeably ahead of both Samurai and Viper in all but two fights where it either just barely trails the former or is roughly tied with both. That's simply way too strong for a job with both raid utility and range flexibility. If Black Mage were brought up to this level, you'd equally have to buff both Red Mage and Summoner otherwise even the raise wouldn't be worth taking either. This, in turn, causes issues with the Prange who are already far too weak as it is. There's serious discussion double Melee/Caster (assuming BLM buff) would be superior despite a full loss of 1%. So they now need to be buffed.

In other words, SE either needs to buff six jobs or slightly nerf one. And if they do go for the former, it means in any potential downtime heavy fight like what M3 looks to be, double melee is objectively worse in every way. That isn't to say I don't think double Caster should be a viable option. It should but there's a difference between being viable and just outright better. Jobs like Dragoon, Ninja and even Reaper couldn't compete with a buffed Black Mage to Picto levels.

Even by cDPS standards PCT only pulls far ahead at its 95th and up percentile which is caused by the ridiculous crit variance on its buff window

Having a raid buff doesn’t factor into cDPS, so essentially using cDPS the only thing that PCT has over the “selfish” jobs is its shield

Is it really worth disqualifying jobs from the top slot simply because they have a small amount of non damage utility, that would also exclude RPR, MNK, the phys ranged and any caster besides BLM

[rewd]

Snip

Objectively it should be BLM > PCT > RDM/SMN for obvious reasons, I'd say. Overall, PCT is fine where it currently stands and more specifically there's no reason why it shouldn't be balanced like MNK and RPR (which are the utility melees, especially MNK). Following the same logic applied to PCT, RPR and MNK are also overtuned at the moment.

VPR might not have a personale defensive but it still has second wind and bloodbath (which is particularly effective on VPR). PCT doesn't get this luxury and if you use the AoE shield, then not only you don't get the ST version, you also don't get an equivalent to RDM's vercure.

Comparing caster and melee movement tools doesn't make much sense to me. Casters have to deal with movement much more than melee (which makes sense and is part of the fun) and they also have different approaches to it: melee want to stay near the boss, casters want to stay in the safe spot (as long as they can still target the boss). Saying that a dash should be the standard also implies that it is objectively better than a gap closer, but that's not true. They are both great tools, they simply (sometimes) shine in different areas. I also think that more homogenisation is the last thing we need at the moment. Besides, there's no need to mention caster mobility because melee already have wildly different movement within their role anyway.