Changes to RDM Manafication feel detrimental

[Iscah]

The 7.0 update to jobs has altered RDM's Manafication from adding 50 mana to the spellcasting gauge to giving three time-limited stacks of ability to use enchanted melee skills without cost. This was presented in a recent live letter as being intended to be a beneficial change so that players don't need to worry about overfilling their mana gauge when using it.

I'm no expert player and I don't know if the changes are helpful to high-level play, but I have now played my first dungeon as RDM since the change was implemented, and it feels like it is detrimental rather than helpful.

My immediate impression is that it feels less satisfying to use when you can't see that you're spending gauge to charge the spells, and it just doesn't feel quite right.

But the bigger issue is that as soon as you start having to move around for boss mechanics, or finish off an enemy pack partway through the combo and have to run to the next pack, there's a risk that the timed stacks will run out and you're left unable to perform the third hit of the combo, which means that you miss out on not just that one hit but potentially all the heavy-hitting finisher spells after it.

This was not previously an issue as the time limit on performing the next combo hit is more generous than the time now given to use the three stacks, and even if it ran out, the mana remained available so you could still (much later if necessary) perform a third attack to fill the three diamond markers and access the finisher spells. Now you can be left without enough mana to do that.

I also expect this would be quite inconvenient in deep dungeons where you might have gaps between enemy encounters, and against weaker enemies (particularly with a party) you often can't get a full melee combo in at once. Again, under the previous system that would mean you've still got that mana saved away to use in the next fight, but now you're on a very strict timer to get it all spent.

What are other players' thoughts on this change? Is it feeling better or worse for you? Am I just doing it wrong?

[Pyitoechito]

But the bigger issue is that as soon as you start having to move around for boss mechanics, or finish off an enemy pack partway through the combo and have to run to the next pack, there's a risk that the timed stacks will run out and you're left unable to perform the third hit of the combo, which means that you miss out on not just that one hit but potentially all the heavy-hitting finisher spells after it.

This was not previously an issue as the time limit on performing the next combo hit is more generous than the time now given to use the three stacks, and even if it ran out, the mana remained available so you could still (much later if necessary) perform a third attack to fill the three diamond markers and access the finisher spells. Now you can be left without enough mana to do that.

I also expect this would be quite inconvenient in deep dungeons where you might have gaps between enemy encounters, and against weaker enemies (particularly with a party) you often can't get a full melee combo in at once. Again, under the previous system that would mean you've still got that mana saved away to use in the next fight, but now you're on a very strict timer to get it all spent.

This will come down to optimizing around both Manaification and spending mana normally. Players have to gauge if the time is right to use Manaification or save it for the next available opportunity. If a boss/trash pack is at low health, or a mechanic is coming up that requires a lot of movement or the boss becomes untargetable, then it's best to save Manaification to get the most out of both the free-spending stacks and the damage buff. All jobs have to optimize around this in regard to their burst phases, so it's not exclusive to red mage. A great example is machinist's Hypercharge windows. They only have a brief window to execute their 5 GCDs, so if a pack dies right as they activate it and only get 1-2 GCDs off, then that's a loss of damage when they should have saved it. It's all about timing and knowing when to hold/spend.

[Rychu]

Answering this from a 4 year RDM main and enjoyer of Savage and Ultimate, my view of this might be a bit biased.

My immediate impression is that it feels less satisfying to use when you can't see that you're spending gauge to charge the spells, and it just doesn't feel quite right.

This is really just up to personal preference. Maybe if they made the job gauge turn red when you press manafication that might help with what you are feeling?

But the bigger issue is that as soon as you start having to move around for boss mechanics, or finish off an enemy pack partway through the combo and have to run to the next pack, there's a risk that the timed stacks will run out and you're left unable to perform the third hit of the combo, which means that you miss out on not just that one hit but potentially all the heavy-hitting finisher spells after it.

This was not previously an issue as the time limit on performing the next combo hit is more generous than the time now given to use the three stacks, and even if it ran out, the mana remained available so you could still (much later if necessary) perform a third attack to fill the three diamond markers and access the finisher spells. Now you can be left without enough mana to do that.

This is half true and half false. The previous combo would fall off 30 seconds from your last action of the sword combo if it wasn't completed, it was just an invisible timer. Now you just have 30 seconds total, no exceptions.

Though, I really can't see how this is that detrimental since at most, the previous iteration gave you maybe 32-33 seconds instead of the current hard capped 30 seconds. Sorry.

And honestly if you are that close to killing a boss or trash pack without being able to get your 3 hit combo off, you're better off just holding it for the next pull. Learning when you pop and when to hold is a great way to elevate yourself from the skill floor to the skill ceiling.

I also expect this would be quite inconvenient in deep dungeons where you might have gaps between enemy encounters, and against weaker enemies (particularly with a party) you often can't get a full melee combo in at once. Again, under the previous system that would mean you've still got that mana saved away to use in the next fight, but now you're on a very strict timer to get it all spent.

As mentioned earlier, if I know the pull is going to die without me being able to finish the combo then I hold it. Better to hold to get the full use of it a minute later than to pop it the second it is up and waste 90% of the combo. This is unfortunately just something you have to get a feel for to become a better Red Mage.

Hope this helps! Feel free to find me in game if you need pointers.

[Iscah]

This is half true and half false. The previous combo would fall off 30 seconds from your last action of the sword combo if it wasn't completed, it was just an invisible timer. Now you just have 30 seconds total, no exceptions.

Though, I really can't see how this is that detrimental since at most, the previous iteration gave you maybe 32-33 seconds instead of the current hard capped 30 seconds. Sorry.

The new timer is not 30 seconds, it is 15.

Additionally, the amount of time you previously had to consume the mana, regardless of the combo timer, was in fact infinite.

Furthermore, the change was promoted as something to make it easier for players and help them to not waste the mana they received from the skill. If this was indeed the intent as they described, then the result is the opposite, regardless of whether you think the extra planning required for efficient use is a good or bad thing.

[Rychu]

The new timer is not 30 seconds, it is 15.

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Ah you're right that's completely my bad on the timer. I'm guessing I misread the timer the timer with the new skills we got added. you are completely correct here.

Additionally, the amount of time you previously had to consume the mana, regardless of the combo timer, was in fact infinite.

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I thought about how to respond to this, but I feel like the answer will not just see eye to eye on it. the sword combo takes 4.5 seconds to complete and then you can hold the verholy/verflare indefinitely until the next pull, I still just can't image that amount of time not being able to be accounted for when you press manafication. I personally just do not see this being a big enough issue. I am sorry about this.

Furthermore, the change was promoted as something to make it easier for players and help them to not waste the mana they received from the skill. If this was indeed the intent as they described, then the result is the opposite, regardless of whether you think the extra planning required for efficient use is a good or bad thing.

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This is most likely just a disconnect between casual play and savage/ultimate tier content. Speaking first hand from Asphodelos-Anabaseios, manafication essentially punished the red mage for trying to save their mana for movement. There were a not insignificant amount of mechanics in Endwalker's raid series that involves a lot of movement that red mage could not reasonably do without stacking a bunch of mana to do back to back sword combos (p7s is a good example). If you had say 90/88 black and white mana when 2 minute burst came up, you could not press it without a majority of the ability being wasted. This Dawntrail change completely removes that issue and brings red mage more in line with the movement of summoner and black mage (i havent unlocked picto yet so i have no idea about its movement yet)

[Zjar]

Reaper is in a similar situation. Plentiful Harvest used to give 50 blue gage, which is enough for Enshroud. Instead, you get a buff to use Enshroud for free, now. The problem is, this is granted through a 30 second buff, instead of a non-timed buff, or 60 second buff like other Reaper temporary buffs are. This means if you end a pack or have to wait too long, you could Plentiful Harvest, and not use the buff in time to Enshroud. Feels shitty, especially with Plentiful Harvest only being usable after 2 minute cooldown Arcane Circle. I am sad to hear Red Mage has the same timed buff non-sense happening.

[Kaedys]

The new timer is not 30 seconds, it is 15.

Additionally, the amount of time you previously had to consume the mana, regardless of the combo timer, was in fact infinite.

Furthermore, the change was promoted as something to make it easier for players and help them to not waste the mana they received from the skill. If this was indeed the intent as they described, then the result is the opposite, regardless of whether you think the extra planning required for efficient use is a good or bad thing.

They're boosting the timer to at least 20s in 7.0.1. We don't know the exact amount yet, but they said they're increasing the duration, so either 20 or maybe 30, we'll have to see. That said, regardless of the change, you'd lose out on Prefulgence if you fail to use the Manafication stacks in the duration. And the stacks don't impact the new functionality anyway, since the major new functionality, not giving gauge and instead making the next 3 melee attacks free, lasts the same amount of time as the Manafication stacks anyway (and if you can't use all 3 melee stacks in that time, you're definitely not using all 6 of the Manafication stacks). Basically, the existence of Prefulgence means you never want to use Manafication if you're not going to be able to get all 6 attacks in anyway. Really the only thing that was lost with the change is you can't use it during downtime as easily.

I do, however, wish they would increase the cooldown on Manafication back up to 120s. It was set at 110s because we sometimes needed to delay it a smidge to avoid overcapping, so that extra 10s gave us some breathing room on re-syncing with raid buffs. But since that forced drifting is no longer an issue, I'd rather the whole debate over whether to desync it from raid buffs (ie. use it on CD) or keep it synced just get smothered entirely.

Reaper is in a similar situation. Plentiful Harvest used to give 50 blue gage, which is enough for Enshroud. Instead, you get a buff to use Enshroud for free, now. The problem is, this is granted through a 30 second buff, instead of a non-timed buff, or 60 second buff like other Reaper temporary buffs are. This means if you end a pack or have to wait too long, you could Plentiful Harvest, and not use the buff in time to Enshroud. Feels shitty, especially with Plentiful Harvest only being usable after 2 minute cooldown Arcane Circle. I am sad to hear Red Mage has the same timed buff non-sense happening.

Eh, they're about the same. The major difference, actually, is that Plentiful Harvest hits quite hard on its own, while Manafication does absolutely nothing if you're not attacking and consuming the buff. And Prefulgence means you never want to just do that halfway anyway.

Edit: It's also worth noting that Machinist's Barrel Stabilizer got this treatment. Weirdly, Ninja Meisui, Samurai Ikishoten, and Warrior Infuriate did not, despite working identically to Barrel Stabilizer (albeit on a shorter CD for two of those). Pictomancer's Starry Muse also works like Manafication, granting a free usage of Subtractive Palette, which is actually a bit annoying, since there's a pretty considerable delay before it's usable if you don't already have the Paint gauge for it, preventing double-weaving Starry into Subtractive without clipping.