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  1. #31
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,634
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Yokubo View Post
    For what it's worth, I feel Heavensward had the best Monk set up.
    It was fine, if given tweaks, but there are some things about Heavensward MNK that seem fundamental and yet also far worse than late Stormblood (Tornado Kick) or Endwalker Monk: Namely, that Greased Lightning existed as a per-fight tax rather than a real resource and Perfect Balance had to be saved for re-ramp alone (thus largely invalidating that tax anyways).

    Endwalker Monk was actually shockingly good, imho, especially if playing at higher than recommended Skill Speed as to pull off slightly different rotational meeting points with CDs and get in an extra Bootshine (or reduced DF/DM clip) per RoF. I would ideally have just picked up off that via general gamewide QoL improvements instead of once again hiding those shortfalls (affecting only some players) by trimming away gameplay (for all players).



    :: I included a mock-up of what a logical extension of Endwalker Monk in the interests of increased accessibility (without reduced skill ceiling) might look like on a recent thread asking what Dawntrail changes were for the worse.
    See/expand the box below:


    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Guess I'll put in my own $0.02.

    Although things have trended in this way for a while now so maybe it does meet every criteria for a "change", it feels like this trend has sharpened even more with Dawntrail:

    Falling back on simplifications to forgot the need for technical advancements or even basic UI polish.

    Let's take Monk for example. Let's start from the a couple potential issues that the dev team has, apparently, taken issue with: unnecessary barriers to accessibility, button bloat, and action bloat.
    • Let us also say that, due to frequent player complaints about tracking DoTs or buff timers, that difficulty could be considered an unnecessary barrier to accessibility.

    • Next, let us define "button bloat" as any button(s) the control or gameplay from which could be provided without loss with (fewer or) no buttons used.

    • Finally, we'll take the former examples of old Power Surge (buffs next single-target Jump or SSD, meant to only ever be used on every third Jump and only ever Jump and therefore providing no real further thought beyond hitting it when it's available since Power Surge was on a multiple of Jump's timer anyways).

    Given these issues commented on in the past and the opportunities, therefore, to address them, which of the choices below would seem to do the greater general good and least harm to job design?

    OPTION ONE:
    Improve the combat UI gamewide through simple but effective changes, thereby making essential (de)buff tracking a non-issue; revitalize lackluster actions; trim unnecessary constraints and buttons without opening rotation to ill or degenerative effects; and, in doing so, inadvertently make Monk more open to nuance and unique.
    Click below to expand for details:
    • Status Effects can now be placed separately and/or at separate sizes for one's own debuffs and Target Status Effects may now similarly be customized into chosen layouts of icons per row / total number of rows, left or right aligned. You may now customize the order of different types of status effects, including separately by self, party, and others.

    • By default, timers for core debuffs, specific to each job, are now tracked directly below or to either side of enemy nameplates, with an icon, faded icon, small icon, or just the timer; said timer may be given as a bar beneath the enemy health bar, a number, or both. You can customize this to remove these timers or permit more effects to be tracked. Enemy nameplates may be further customized to reduce seemingly unnecessary information and now carry further information by default, such as interruptible casts, stunnable special actions, level of threat, and whether one is out of range, etc.

    • HUD Layout has been revamped to include Gauges, Targeting, and Groups as separate categories. Additionally, many more pieces of UI have become separable and show this by default; UI elements with separable parts, including these new ones, now list each potentially separable element indented below the name for the combined form of that UI element.

    • Most gauges and parameter bars are now separable in this way, including the Mana Bar, Song Gauge: Codas, Soul Voice, and Song Progress; Beast Chakra Gauge: Blitz Progress, Nadi, Forms, Leaden Fist, Disciplined Fist, Demolish, Perfect Balance Stacks; Balance Gauge: Black Magic, White Magic, Mana Crystals; Elemental Gauge: Elemental Timer, Elemental Counter, Umbral Hearts, Astral Soul, Polyglot Timer, Polyglot Counter, Paradox; etc.

    • Twin Snakes and Dragon Kick potency reduced by 20 and True Strike, and Demolish potency increased by 20. This significantly increases the punishment of using simplified Dragon Kick rotations (from about 92% to ~86% of regular damage).

    • Riddle of Wind now, for 10 seconds, increases you auto-attack and movement speed by 40%, allows auto-attack critical strikes to generate Chakra, and causes the use of single-target and multi-target attacks with Form to replace The Forbidden Chakra and Enlightenment, respectively, allowing you to use that skill again as an ability. Brotherhood and Riddle of Wind now both allow your Chakra to overcharge, up to a total of 10 Chakra.

    • Anatman now grants 1 second of Riddle of Fire, Riddle of Wind, and Riddle of Earth for each second it is channeled. These durations do not begin to fade until the channel ends.

    • Greased Lightning has been returned in a rehauled state. It now reads, "The damage of your Opo-opo, Raptor, and Coeurl skills are increased by 20% and their recast times reduced by 20%. Outside of Perfect Balance, each Form that benefits from these effects cannot benefit again for (3 GCDs' time)." Moreover, all Form Bonuses have been removed, their benefits rolled into the original abilities, but the bonus damage from Leaden Fist has been reduced to 80 potency and Snap Punch potency has been increased by 20 in its stead.
      This causes optimal play to follow the same rotations as before, as one can only get full value out of the form every but makes Form Shift unnecessary.
    • Revamp the default Beast Chakra Gauge, having it instead by default show the three forms, Opo-opo, Raptor, and Coeurl, from left to right, with each losing its glow and shrinking upon consuming the effects of Greased Lightning, gradually restoring to normal size and glow over 3 GCDs' time to mark when it will again have full power. By default, the remaining time on Leaden Fist, Disciplined Fist, and Demolish (on your current target) are shown as a radial timer around and a numeric timer below the Opo-opo, Raptor, and Coeurl nodes.

      While in Fluid Form, all are shown again at full size and glow (since Fluid Form guarantees the effects of Greased Lightning) regardless of recent progress, and a stacking chevron appears above reused forms.
      This, in effect, maintains the same general rotation as before, but without need for windup (beyond Disciplined Fist), a single direction of progression (O->R->C->), or the bloat of Form Shift in order to begin from a different point in that set order. Essentially, for fewer buttons, you get a Monk who is more uniquely Monk, and by removing the need for set Form bonuses, you more nuanced use of Forms is now available.
    • (Steeled/Forbidden) Meditation (and Inspirited/Enlightened Meditation) has (have) been removed, though Chakra spenders remain and can now be used at three or more Chakra for a fifth of their current potency per stack. Instead of needing an active button-press, you generate 1 Chakra per half of a global cooldown's time that you have not been under the global cooldown. Progress towards this the next Chakra granted in this manner is saved and accumulated and is now tracked just above your Chakra counter by default (and is separable).
      This provides roughly the same Chakra generation over time but without the need for a separate button press, therefore allowing more flexibility among Chakra spending and reducing the chore of use between fights.


    OPTION TWO:
    Make players look at their job gauge, instead of their more customizably placed (Conditional Buffs portion of the) Status Effects bar, to see whether they should use Dragon Kick or Leaden Fist, Twin Snake or Raptor Strike, Demolish or Snap Punch; remove Monk's GCD nuke, replacing it with a much more rarely pressed maintenance buff; remove any interaction between surrounding rotation and Blitz; remove any rotational interaction with downtime; rather than giving Anatman any purpose (again), remove it entirely.
    For details, play Dawntrail Monk or even just review its job guide.
    (2)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 07-08-2024 at 07:09 AM.

  2. #32
    Player
    Gorondu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    31
    Character
    Nayu Schattenfell
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    What keeps me from maining Monk is its Chakra procs. The 10 possible stacks should be baseline and not only during brotherhood. To play the monk perfectly you need to hit an ogcd that may come or not come after your very fast gcd attacks. No other class is that unforeseeable. Maybe bard with his one song, but this is only active one third of his time and his attacks are much slower.

    I love all other changes to monk and would play him as main if this change would be made.
    (3)

  3. #33
    Player
    Palladiamors's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    309
    Character
    Ishimar Furial
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 93
    Yea, you guys are around summoner level of deleted at this point. I'm sorry for your loss, and for the people who rush in screaming "I LIKE IT NOW!"
    (9)

  4. #34
    Player
    Selvokaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    310
    Character
    Reiya Rahamos
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    ...my feelings are mostly of confusion, one rotation restores your beast gauge, but the other rotation leaves you with 1 lv 2, and 2 lv 3s, which means if you run the 2nd combo again boot shine won't have its full potency? this feels wrong, while others might say it adds complexity I feel like it adds needless management, i'd rather you'd be able to jump back and forth between any skill that uses points of said beast gauge until you expend it all and have to finish the combo and then use the restore combo, then I remembered free form was a thing,

    So answer me this, is it supposed to be Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Demolish, <-- Restore Combo or starter combo, then Bootshine, True Strike, Snap Punch, Form Shift, True Strike, Snap Punch, Form Shift, Snap Punch, back to Dragon Kick Combo?

    am I alone in thinking it'd be better if Form Shift was ogcd? still has the same recast but doesn't share the same recast bar as weapon skills.

    Also speaking of the 10 chakra charge, please tell me they are going to rework that, like that should just be the normal then so that you either choose to burst early with 5 or wait until you get 10 for a bigger bigger number from a much more powerful skill.
    (0)
    Last edited by Selvokaz; 07-08-2024 at 07:29 PM.

  5. #35
    Player
    Emitans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    303
    Character
    Faorin Shadowclaw
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Pictomancer Lv 100
    Only tried it against a striking dummy but I really hate the "feel" of it now. Pressing Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes no longer gives me a buff, Demolish doesn't DoT the enemy. The buttons feel hollow now. They only exist to buff the "real" buttons.
    (7)

  6. #36
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,634
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Emitans View Post
    Only tried it against a striking dummy but I really hate the "feel" of it now. Pressing Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes no longer gives me a buff, Demolish doesn't DoT the enemy. The buttons feel hollow now. They only exist to buff the "real" buttons.
    Aye, and the part that I expect was missed on the developers is how different a maintenance buff that needs to be played around will feel from a maintenance buff that does not. At present, because a double-Lunar opener is so often the go-to, our only risk is 15% of the difference between Raptor-buffer and Raptor-spam and between Coeurl-buffer and Coeurl-spam...

    ...which... has seemed to normally remain pretty automatic to avoid under normal rotation, from what I recall in single-target combat (as there's... nothing to friggin do or juggle in AoE anymore anyways, AoE isn't relevant to this), though I forget whether that's from Blitz starting on 1st, 2nd (open after DK), 3rd (for lower SkS, opening after Twin and Demo since you can't get in the extra Leapopo anyways due to both Reply GCDs taking space in window) or 4th (opening with buffs)GCD.

    Will test to check once I can get on after work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorondu View Post
    What keeps me from maining Monk is its Chakra procs. The 10 possible stacks should be baseline and not only during brotherhood. To play the monk perfectly you need to hit an ogcd that may come or not come after your very fast gcd attacks.
    Outside of Brotherhood, the Chakra can only come from your GCDs, so you always have time to spend whatever Chakra you generate, immediately after generating them. While it's far from fun to do as a broader habit, you can actually just spam Meditation up until the last second of your GCD's refresh to make your spender go off automatically if and only if you have enough Chakra to use it, since it won't queue weaponskills (only use abilities) until then.

    Early on, I was a big advocate for, at minimum, "Hold 7, spend 5" (or, ideally, "Hold 7, spend <all available>") so that we had a bit more margin, but sometimes the need to spend them asap and actually think at least a little about Chakra in the moment rather than as a banking mechanism (a la modern Bloodletters) actually feels more good than bad to me. /shrug
    (1)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 07-09-2024 at 09:53 AM.

  7. #37
    Player
    VentVanitas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    675
    Character
    Seiko Hanamura
    World
    Kujata
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    I haven't visited the forum in a while, took a break from it because I actually was enjoying myself going through Dawntrail. as a Viper, though, as I've dropped Monk for it after maining it since 2018.

    to no one's surprise, making an even more unnecessarily designed system just to mimic old Monk had only introduced even more problems than solved them. who would've seen that coming? definitely not me. I can't even be angry or sad anymore. it's just funny now, I can't help but pity how pathetic the job is. even 5.4 MNK had more going on with it than this iteration does.

    great job, SE! looking forward to seeing what they'll do to try and desperately salvage this dead job.
    (3)

  8. #38
    Player
    SegaChief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Glasgow - teleporting from there to here ain't cheap
    Posts
    2
    Character
    Scumbag Mcgee
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    The only realistic way out of this mess I can see that's feasible in the short time-frame before Savage is that they revert to EW Monk, keep the 10 chakra gauge, and convert the Replies into weavable CDs. The extra cap on chakra could help with single-weaving window issues that having two extra CDs to weave might cause (follow up actions are an actual blight on job design, I swear to god) but if it gets chronic then they could revive a tweaked version of the slowdown on RoF from SB to enable double-weaving during burst windows (with whatever needs tweaked to make up for a missing GCD or two under burst, like higher % on the RoF damage buff or adding the missing potency onto Fire's Reply; former would be better for lower level caps though).

    What they'll probably actually do is just stick form requirement on DK, buff the AOE potencies, and call it a day. I don't know if the team that handles jobs + content balancing is stretched too thin and maybe making mistakes, or if they've fallen victim to prioritising ease of development over the player's experience, but I don't expect much at this point. I played monk since 2.0 and did every raid tier + ultimate since Alex Creator with it so I'm no stranger to the many design flaws that Monk has had over the years in its many iterations but this DT Monk feels like poison to play. I did the two new EX trials with it and it's completely missing its core; it lost a lot of its pillars over the years, and Twin + Demo were the last ones it seems like.
    (2)

  9. #39
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,634
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by VentVanitas View Post
    to no one's surprise, making an even more unnecessarily designed system just to mimic old Monk
    And what system would that be? No part of Fury gauge, the removal of Disciplined Fist and Demolish (as a mechanic, not merely a name), Wind's Reply, or Earth's Reply mimic old Monk.

    ???

    looking forward to seeing what they'll do to try and desperately salvage this dead job.
    I mean, Endwalker Monk was far from dead. To "salvage" it they needed only to not randomly wreck it.
    (1)

  10. #40
    Player
    SpeckledBurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    707
    Character
    K'ahli K'uhla'tor
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    And what system would that be? No part of Fury gauge, the removal of Disciplined Fist and Demolish (as a mechanic, not merely a name), Wind's Reply, or Earth's Reply mimic old Monk.
    I think we can infer from the dev's messaging during the Liveletters in the leadup to Dawntrail's Launch and the "In Regards to Upcoming Job Action Adjustments" announcement that the Fury Gauge was presumably meant to mimic the basic flow of old Monk's core GCD rotation that the Twin Snakes/Demolish Timers created. We've just run into the tragic trend of Monk where the devs either don't understand how monk has actually played, will break Monk for seemingly no reason at all/probably do the bare minimum playtesting so they don't notice obvious mistakes that its optimization obsessed playerbase capitalize on. This is seemingly yet another example of how they'll screw up the basic flow while trying to simplify the job without sufficiently testing the job (or playtesting the job at all) which lets stuff like Double True Strike occur in early Shadowbringers. Or to a lesser extent, the Tornado Kick rotation which hinged entirely on TK's potency being dramatically higher than what it's tool tip said it was.

    Anyway Endwalker Monk must have been a once in a lifetime miracle where the devs actually had a vision for the job which actually ended up getting playtested. I'd hope for them to reverse course on the Monk Balls and bring back Twin Snakes/Disciplined Fist and Demolish because this was a completely unnecessary change that appeals to seemingly no one who actually likes the Job, but at this point I know the devs will triple down before reversing course on any Monk changes they make until it blows up catastrophically.
    (4)

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