Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[Verathel]

Fifth Zone....Why is this writing all over the place? Personally liking the later zones sofar than the beginning ones by a considerable margin and overall the writing has improved but it is so jarring. You have a character say something good or smart and then the next line is utter bull s- or something completely stupid.

Wuk Lamat actually says something good for once then completely ruins it a few minutes later.

[Raven2014]

snip

The thing that seal Zenos for me is the speech he made in his last entry. All Scion were screaming "NOOOO YOU CAN"T FIGHT HER ALONE" as they were whipped away, then Zeno showed up and ask "why you prey still live, surely it's not match for you", then he proceed to propose to "do away with the distraction". So he wasn't helping us saving the world, he's just making sure his last fight with us will have no interloper. Like you said his track record is consistent, he took down the blackrose project isn't out of altruism, but just because it will make the WoL weaker. Fighting us at our best is Zeno's god given right, and no one can say otherwise even a god. (Endwalker).

Thanks for reminding me, because now I notice another oxymoron about Wuk. It's very obvious Wuk's entrance to the last fight is a copy of Zeno's, but the effect cann't be more diferent:

- Zenos: came in and side line the final boss of a 10 years long story as mere distraction in order to set the stage wholly about us (the WoL and himself).

- Wuk Lamat: came in and side line us (WoL) to make the stage all about herself.

It's hilarious, sadly just in a bad way.

[Papayatar]

Zenos worked for me because like you said, he was unrepentant about his goals. His goal never changed, even if his means did, and there was an odd subtlety to that. That by meeting you, Zenos became a little more human.

Honestly this I think was done really well with Zenos, he was one note with his goal but he had some growth in character that had him adjust how to get there.

Like I’ll never forget Zenos getting sassed by Alisae and him not murdering her on the spot. A light bulb went off in that man’s head and then he adjusted just enough so his singular goal could still be met. And then we get the best hype man in a final trial ever.

With Wuk Lamat, even if her goals never changed, there wasn’t anything that challenged that maybe she should adjust something or anything to work to arrive at the same end goal. Everything was approached with the same identical method and it worked 100% of the time. So it made her characterisation and goals so hollow (and boring) in comparison.

When the WoL’s homocidal stalker has more growth than FFXIV’s Disney Princess there’s something wrong.

[PaleYonder]

- Zenos: came in and side line the final boss of a 10 years long story as mere distraction in order to set the stage wholly about us (the WoL and himself).

- Wuk Lamat: came in and side line us (WoL) to make the stage all about herself.

It's hilarious, sadly just in a bad way.

When the WoL’s homocidal stalker has more growth than FFXIV’s Disney Princess there’s something wrong.

Isn't it! And Zenos trusted us to handle the main part of the fight against the Endsinger, he expressed his confidence in us, gave a bit of aid, and waited for us to dispatch the side prey.
Wuk Lamat couldn't even let us get done with the fight we had well in hand before coming in to "save us" and save the spotlight for herself.

Man... I've always been a Zenos enjoyer, I found him hilarious from the start, though I understand why others don't like him. But he didn't deserve this bargain bin copycat.

[Barachim]

Thanks for reminding me, because now I notice another oxymoron about Wuk. It's very obvious Wuk's entrance to the last fight is a copy of Zeno's, but the effect cann't be more diferent:

To me it felt like they tried to recreate the Ryne and Gaia moment from Shadowbringers. Except when Gaia appeared, we actually needed the save as we were trapped in ice, there was more of an emotional aspect as Ryne and Gaia grew to be really close friends, plus she used to be an Ascian, so she's actually a force to be reckoned with.

Wuk Lamat interferes just because Sphene hits us a bit harder, the whole emotional aspect falls flat as Wuk Lamat and Sphene barely spent time together and she continues to pull power-ups out of her butt.

[Raven2014]

Zenos worked for me because like you said, he was unrepentant about his goals. His goal never changed, even if his means did, and there was an odd subtlety to that. That by meeting you, Zenos became a little more human.

I think the subtlety here is that until he met us, he can always get what he wants with no effort. But after meeting the WoL he finally have to spend effort to get what he want. It's not even something cliche as "how to beat us", but rather "how to get the best fight out of us" and he kept finding "exciting" new way to get a rise out of the WoL. Some say it's about the journey not the end, or vice versa. But I feel Zenos actually got both at the end.

[Dogempire]

The thing that seal Zenos for me is the speech he made in his last entry. All Scion were screaming "NOOOO YOU CAN"T FIGHT HER ALONE" as they were whipped away, then Zeno showed up and ask "why you prey still live, surely it's not match for you", then he proceed to propose to "do away with the distraction". So he wasn't helping us saving the world, he's just making sure his last fight with us will have no interloper. Like you said his track record is consistent, he took down the blackrose project isn't out of altruism, but just because it will make the WoL weaker. Fighting us at our best is Zeno's god given right, and no one can say otherwise even a god. (Endwalker).

Thanks for reminding me, because now I notice another oxymoron about Wuk. It's very obvious Wuk's entrance to the last fight is a copy of Zeno's, but the effect cann't be more diferent:

- Zenos: came in and side line the final boss of a 10 years long story as mere distraction in order to set the stage wholly about us (the WoL and himself).

- Wuk Lamat: came in and side line us (WoL) to make the stage all about herself.

It's hilarious, sadly just in a bad way.

Zenos didn't even sideline the boss, Zenos' entrance to the story felt more to me like "Hey, wanna fly on the back of a dragon god, hurtling through space as a depressed bird chucks planets at you?"

Like hell yeah, Zenos only made the last boss more epic, AND THEN when we had our victory the game was like "I know you just finished an epic battle and destroyed an existence-ending horror, but how about we have a battle even more epic than the one you just fought?"

Zenos was one of my favorite parts of Endwalker, he didn't show up often but when he did it would be very entertaining and a good time (In the Cold, freeing Zodiark, that time when Alisae said some things to him and he responded)

His last solo duty was lowkey like ending 8+ years worth of story with a bang in a final act of self-indulgence against a person who's more or less, just like you (Unless you just hate combat content anyways)

[Dogempire]

To me it felt like they tried to recreate the Ryne and Gaia moment from Shadowbringers. Except when Gaia appeared, we actually needed the save as we were trapped in ice, there was more of an emotional aspect as Ryne and Gaia grew to be really close friends, plus she used to be an Ascian, so she's actually a force to be reckoned with.

Wuk Lamat interferes just because Sphene hits us a bit harder, the whole emotional aspect falls flat as Wuk Lamat and Sphene barely spent time together and she continues to pull power-ups out of her butt.

It felt more like Wuk Lamat entered because the boss hit the "Okay, now watch this cutscene" button that they seem to be using Down For The Count for these days.

There wasn't a point where Wuk was needed, she just kind of jumped in to steal the kill and deliver some poorly voice acted dialogue while using the formulaic plot to give herself an unearned power up

...either that, or Wuk Lamat just gets stronger when she isn't the center of attention, and in 8.0 she'll show up as the final boss because she got SO much stronger after sitting out of the story for so long

[Voidmage]

It felt more like Wuk Lamat entered because the boss hit the "Okay, now watch this cutscene" button that they seem to be using Down For The Count for these days.

You remember Gilgamesh? Just becoming untargetable changing phase and not paralyzing the WoL?
I swear there have been so many "down for the court" these last expansions my WoL should sit in a wheelchair.

[PaleYonder]

This is all so true it hurts.

New idea for 7.1: Wuk Lamat transforms: "It was I, Gilgamesh, all along!" and the whole thing was an elaborate prank for some nonsense reason; we all do a new Manderville dance, happy end. And now we look for the real Golden City.