Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Anneliese_Lev]

I don't have evidence, but the more I think about it, it looks like it was "upgraded" using a light touch of AI.

That's a good explanation of why you would obtain "doll" faces in female models

[azaleai]

I don't have evidence, but the more I think about it, it looks like it was "upgraded" using a light touch of AI.

That's a good explanation of why you would obtain "doll" faces in female models

I've been pondering on this and... I think you might be right. Concerning the textures at least - I don't think AI is particularly advanced when it comes to 3D work.

My lip misalignment issue did sorta exist on the old normal maps; there appeared to be two lines that could be interpreted as the apex of the upper lip. It didn't register as an issue then because the models and textures were lower res and more stylised and there was no texturing on the lips to 100% define lips and skin.

As well as that, AI wouldn't know how to handle Roegadyn's brows so it would smooth out the inhuman creases on the nomal map, but it makes sense for diffuse maps to maintain more of their detail since they can contain freckles, tattoos, makeup or scars.

I can't fathom a human artist looking at roe face 2 right now and being proud of their work, nor of thinking "this looks good!", but a machine with lacking human oversight? Yeah, I can believe that.

As much as I as a game artist myself am loathe to assume the use of AI rather than actual human artist's love and care, it makes this bitter pill slightly easier to swallow - it's not a human maliciously deciding the least played race can remain ugly for all they care or some overworked soul going "eh, close enough", but rather a skeleton team relying on technology to do the work for them because they simply don't have the manpower to do it manually as fast as the higher-ups are requiring them to.

Either way, I still stand by the fact I think they should have taken a lot longer to do this upgrade. perhaps starting with environments and lighting and taken another year or a patch or two to do the characters right. It's really not that hard to just update the models and textures to a higher resolution but change nothing else, but it does take a lot of time, care and effort.

[TheDustyOne]

I've been pondering on this and... I think you might be right. Concerning the textures at least - I don't think AI is particularly advanced when it comes to 3D work.

Someone can fact-check me on this, but I remember an old interview (was it just before or just after EW launch?) where Yoshida talked about how they planned to upscale the textures, but because of the sheer volume of textures, would use AI with human touch-ups. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: Couldn't find anything definitive about the new textures being AI (although it wouldn't surprise me), but I did get confirmation that the UI updates from 5.5 were AI scaled with human touch-ups: https://gamerescape.com/2021/04/12/s...ture-upgrades/

[Hejligan]

I don't have evidence, but the more I think about it, it looks like it was "upgraded" using a light touch of AI.

That's a good explanation of why you would obtain "doll" faces in female models

I am not saying that I 100% agree with you, but it is the funny that you should mention it: a few years back my friends ran my character through a "yaasify"-filter and that looks not entirely dissimilar from the treatment my character got in 7.0...

I don't really seriously believe it that they used AI, but a part of me can kind of see the changes to many female Miqo'tes be akin to using a "make this a "pretty girl""-Instagram filter lol.

But at the same time, it would explain how they could so consistently misunderstand where the lips versus mouth folds were when translating from the original models...

[Loggos]

Not my character obviously but I noticed that Erenville's upper lip almost merges with/"bleeds"/"melts" into his face, so that its shape becomes really hard to see.
It has almost no definition at the sides.

This isn't the case in all lighting situations of course but it really stood out to me during the cutscene below.



Unfortunately I don't have a good comparison screenshot. The best I could get was a really bad screencap from a youtube video in the same location (the Baldesion room). But even in that pixelated, low-quality image I think the left side of his upper lip has slightly more definition and visible edges? (The other is hard to see since his head is turned.)

The colour is also slightly different whereas in the DT screenshot the lip colour and the skin colour are almost identical. The highlights on the lower lip and above the philtrum are also stronger, making the shapes easier to read as they stand out more. In the DT picture they are a lot more subtle.

He also seems more washed out in the DT image? He looks a lot greyer/ashier.
The high-definition strands add to that washed out feeling imo. They stand out so much now, so that the lighter ones make his hair look greyer than before.
In the EW screenshot his skin and hair look more saturated and the shadows are deeper/seem to have a higher amount of black. (Though I can't rule out that this is just the YT quality distortion.)

Lastly, the seam were his ears and his hair meet is even more pronounced now due to the higher-res texture and looks like a really harsh zigzag line.

[noumen0nn]

Personally, I find myself really frustrated with the idea that we need to be diplomatic with our feedback or the devs won't take it into account. Like, of course people are going to be in heightened emotional states over this. If I give a detailed list of points of feedback with traces and labels, like I have in previous posts, why should it matter if I also say "this sucks and I hate it"

[faiarrow]

I need to take a proper 7.0 shot with a direct match to previous shots (vs this one I did at 4am) but yeah uh.

Femroe aren't doing crash hot, especially not hellguard. As a clan they might as well not exist? Which is horrific to say but it's how it feels because our actual racial defining traits are almost nonexistant.



I love missing normal maps! I love having a random baked in brow shadow that is meant to have a normal map under it that makes the character look like she's got contour smeared on her brow that she didn't smooth properly :/

Black pupils for femroe genuinely have ruined the visual aesthetic across both clans, the slight tweak to the eyeshape I used on Sko has made it less heavily lidded but given male roegadyn face 2 has the coloured pupils still and all the women got shaved features and more hyuran or doll-like visuals (face 3 especially for that one) it's a bit ridiculous...

This is from benchmark but I checked in live 7.0 last night and save for some colour adjustments (a bit richer for the eyes) they do still have coloured pupils:


The flat diffuse for the nose ash is still obliterated. It's basically not there on my 2nd character's face, and she has been dollified pretty heavily vs the aloof charm of face 3 originally. On Sko it's kinda there but if you're in the field in daylight it's just ... gone. Looks like a slightly more aggressive shadow or dirty mark vs. sacred ash. Ash on skin, made in a way to stick with a binder like oil which these would be... isn't that light. I find it kind of funny given their sudden push for 'realism' over the lovely stylisation we had that it's seen it get so light.



I've a lot more JP posting in my future about this.

We're the smallest played clan but we deserve some actual care too.

[ShizuForever]

I find it kind of funny given their sudden push for 'realism' over the lovely stylisation we had that it's seen it get so light.

Same, I play this game so that I don't have to look at real faces because I genuinely like anime faces over faces in real life. I actually can't hold eye contact with others IRL because I have a fear of realistic faces. I am genuinely contemplating stopping subscription if this doesnt get fixed by the time 7.1 comes out due to it just simply being impossible to do MSQ while having to keep convincing myself that these faces are not real. The NPCs' faces have all of a sudden became super realistic. Especially when they (and to an extension, the character that 'I' became since the "graphical """update"""") open their mouth the interior of the mouth with all the clarity is like super freaky. Please fix.

[KhujaRela]

Same, I play this game so that I don't have to look at real faces because I genuinely like anime faces over faces in real life. I actually can't hold eye contact with others IRL because I have a fear of realistic faces. I am genuinely contemplating stopping subscription if this doesnt get fixed by the time 7.1 comes out due to it just simply being impossible to do MSQ while having to keep convincing myself that these faces are not real. The NPCs' faces have all of a sudden became super realistic. Especially when they (and to an extension, the character that 'I' became since the "graphical """update"""") open their mouth the interior of the mouth with all the clarity is like super freaky. Please fix.

I agree, they said they didn't seek realism and I feel kinda lied about that too... the problem is its also uncanny realism, some parts more detailed like eyes and iris, and others retaining their "anime like" or "fantasy like" features which makes it even worse...

[Moonfallen]

It is definitely something off with the lighting. I used a retainer fantasia to do character creation and load my pre-save of my character from EW, first benchmark, and second benchmark. The lighting in character creation is amazing of course and my character looks like she did in the updated benchmark and I was happy with how she looked. Upon accepting her appearance and summoning her in game however is where the issue lies. She looks completely different than what I created in character creation. Something with the lighting is off that is making her absolutely hideous in game. I have come to the conclusion that right now, there are no changes for me to personally make to better my character to how I want her especially since it seems the lighting in game is not up to par with the lighting in the character creation screen. I have tried tinkering with my own settings as well in hopes that maybe it is just my graphics settings and the new settings they added, but that is also not the case. All we can do is wait and see.