Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Kaziek]

Fair enough, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. Characters will always look worse under some conditions. The same thing happened before the graphical update ever existed.

That's a bit of an extreme example, I didn't bookmark the master post of terrible pre-7.0 lighting examples that someone around here keeps posting, but I'm sure you get my point. I'm not seeing a way around that without a radical reinvention of the game's visual style.

Also, keep in mind the shadows were softer in the first benchmark and were made more harsh due to player feedback. Personally I preferred the softer shadows so I'm at least partially with you there.



You bring up a good point that I realize I was unclear about in my previous post. I was referring more to the way the shadows were being cast across the face than the actual darkness of the shadows. I haven't seen any standard daytime screenshots that are that dark, but I'd be happy to take a look if you have any examples.

I think using extreme examples is a great way of getting the point across! You're absolutely right about weird lighting like that always being in the game. But like I've said before that lighting was generally only in areas like The Gold Saucer that have "artificial" overhead lighting, and didn't really come up very often.




Here are a few examples from The Mist that would have had a very neutral effect on faces in the previous lighting that now cast harsh shadows. Some of my issues with it are due to model and normal map issues, but the lighting definitely plays a part in the problem. I understand that the more accurate lighting will make certain things look different, but the very swollen look that the current implementation gives to some faces is to me undesirable. So when it comes down to it the thing I take issue with isn't those weird instances of lighting exist, (as you said it's always been a thing in XIV) but rather that they have become much more common than they were before.

[Kaziek]

I don't recall people complaining specifically about shadows in the first benchmark - rather, the lighting in general was broken because it was making characters look translucent. At least, that was my primary issue with it.

This is what I recall as well. Unless I'm misremembering, the complaints about the first benchmark were more about changes to the models themselves and the weirdly waxy looking skin that almost seemed to glow, rather than the shadows. It's why I'm still confused about the radical changes that they made to them going into the second benchmark.

[CidHeiral]

I don't recall people complaining specifically about shadows in the first benchmark - rather, the lighting in general was broken because it was making characters look translucent. At least, that was my primary issue with it.

Oh I absolutely recall people complaining about the soft shadows. There wasn't much people weren't complaining about.

I understand that the more accurate lighting will make certain things look different, but the very swollen look that the current implementation gives to some faces is to me undesirable. So when it comes down to it the thing I take issue with isn't those weird instances of lighting exist, (as you said it's always been a thing in XIV) but rather that they have become much more common than they were before.

I see, thank you for the thoughful explanation. To me the under eye area looks a little odd but other than that the shadows are falling as I would expect them to given the lighting and that head shape, but I understand this is all a matter of perception and personal preference. I have a better idea of where you're coming from now though.

So if you could wave a magic wand and change the lighting somehow, how would you like it changed? Assuming a complete rollback to the previous lighting is off the table.

[Kaziek]

I see, thank you for the thoughful explanation. To me the under eye area looks a little odd but other than that the shadows are falling as I would expect them to given the lighting and that head shape, but I understand this is all a matter of perception and personal preference. I have a better idea of where you're coming from now though.

So if you could wave a magic wand and change the lighting somehow, how would you like it changed? Assuming a complete rollback to the previous lighting is off the table.

I wouldn't ask for a complete rollback even if I could, as that wouldn't be fair to the people who enjoy the improved graphics even if I somewhat disagree with the style shift.

I actually like the new graphics for some characters! For instance my male elezen turned out quite nicely, and while there are certain things that are a bit different I think he ended up being recreated very faithfully. Male elezen faces had the most issues in the old lighting system in my opinion, so it was really nice to see those problems fixed. Viera also look great in the new lighting and have none of the weird shading issues when viewing them in the same areas (La Noscea daytime while facing the sun in the character creator is a great example).

So I guess to make a long story short I don't expect things to look 100% the same or perfect at all times, but in my opinion some faces could use a little more love to make them more faithful as well as work better in the new lighting system. It's almost definitely more of model level issue, but I think the lighting may need some tweaking as well in order to get the best results for everyone.

[Louhikko]

I see your overall point, but I wanted to point out that this specific instance actually isn't an issue with the new lighting interacting with the model itself. Rather, the eyebag shadows are "drawn" onto the normal map of the face. If you remove the eyebag lines from the normal map, that region of the face would go back to looking smooth without needing to alter the geometry.

I'm not really disagreeing with you however when I'm referring to eiditing the model itself, I do personally include normal map as part of that progress and not just the mesh. Just to clarify.

[Len_]

In any event, the devs wished to update the character models, and obviously, a lot of people simply wished they hadn't, while a lot of people are very glad they did. I think, with some things still outstanding that could be adjusted, the devs delivered on their promise about as well as humanly possible, given millions of players will never agree on anything so ephemeral as "impression". Humanly possible, not divinely possible. It's not slip-shod, lazy, lacking in quality, but there are still some things that can be tweaked. How do you think the devs should navigate the path between players who feel they failed to deliver on the promise regarding "impressions" and players who are more than satisfied with the delivery on those same "impressions"?

You are being extremely unserious. This isn't some kind of esoteric art. People are literally lining pixels up and showing how they're totally, OBJECTIVELY different for no reason. If you think it isn't humanly possible to do as good as a job on upgrading characters as they did on downgrading them 10 years ago I think you shouldn't bother speaking on what humans are capable of because you clearly don't know. I know you really love how your character turned out but come on lol.

[Astronis]

You are being extremely unserious. This isn't some kind of esoteric art. People are literally lining pixels up and showing how they're totally, OBJECTIVELY different for no reason. If you think it isn't humanly possible to do as good as a job on upgrading characters as they did on downgrading them 10 years ago I think you shouldn't bother speaking on what humans are capable of because you clearly don't know. I know you really love how your character turned out but come on lol.

It's a totally different mesh. There IS a reason. I think they can tweak it further, and they have, but I also think they've been working hard on a whole lot of things, not just the faces models for months on end. I am an artist. I know how extremely difficult it is to replicate something else with pixel-perfect precision, and I think expecting that is absolutely unreasonable.

[Len_]

It's a totally different mesh. There IS a reason. I think they can tweak it further, and they have, but I also think they've been working hard on a whole lot of things, not just the faces models for months on end. I am an artist. I know how extremely difficult it is to replicate something else with pixel-perfect precision, and I think expecting that is absolutely unreasonable.

Nobody told them to tell the players their main directive was to preserve the impression of the characters and then cheap out on doing the bare minimum first step necessary to achieve that of faithfully recreating and upscaling the assets. "They're working so hard on so many other things." Yeah, we could tell.

[Astronis]

Nobody told them to tell the players their main directive was to preserve the impression of the characters and then cheap out on doing the bare minimum first step necessary to achieve that of faithfully recreating and upscaling the assets. "They're working so hard on so many other things." Yeah, we could tell.

Yeah, I guess it is the dev's fault for trying to please their players. Perhaps next time they won't try and won't say they will try.

[Silaryn]

Yeah, I guess it is the dev's fault for trying to please their players. Perhaps next time they won't try and won't say they will try.

So the only difference is that the devs are going to be honest about it next time.