Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[azaleai]

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

The issue isn't that there's no normal map at all, the issue is that the normal map is missing vital data that the face used to have.



Here is the eyebrow area of the EW normal map next to the DT one. The furrowed brow (which I'd argue is the defining characteristic of the face!) been completely and utterly erased, meaning the face has lost definition and detail. It's now smooth like a wax doll, like we've been airbrushed into those awful overly-photoshopped magazine covers that barely look human.

For reference, this is the DT normal map for male Miqo'te face 2 - the grumpy older looking one:



So it's not a matter of everyone getting smoothed out to be more realistic or play nicer with the lighting or what have you, it is pure and simple, erasure racial traits and the application of some awful beutifying filter to make all the females look more conventionally attractive which, in my opinion, has completely and utterly backfired.

Additionally, the normal map and the diffuse map don't even line up on the lips:



Also, the eye socket appears to start half-way up the forehead, making it look like some barbie doll a child tried to gouge the eyes out of. The facial structure the face had before the update has been completely and utterly ruined. There is no longer a crease between the brow ridge and the top of the nose. There is no longer the faint normal detail showing the muscle under the eyebrow.



Yes it has a normal map. But it is a broken one.

This is not an upgrade. This is a mess.

[Iscah]

I don't recall people complaining specifically about shadows in the first benchmark - rather, the lighting in general was broken because it was making characters look translucent. At least, that was my primary issue with it.

[Kaziek]

I don't recall people complaining specifically about shadows in the first benchmark - rather, the lighting in general was broken because it was making characters look translucent. At least, that was my primary issue with it.

This is what I recall as well. Unless I'm misremembering, the complaints about the first benchmark were more about changes to the models themselves and the weirdly waxy looking skin that almost seemed to glow, rather than the shadows. It's why I'm still confused about the radical changes that they made to them going into the second benchmark.

[Kaziek]

I see, thank you for the thoughful explanation. To me the under eye area looks a little odd but other than that the shadows are falling as I would expect them to given the lighting and that head shape, but I understand this is all a matter of perception and personal preference. I have a better idea of where you're coming from now though.

So if you could wave a magic wand and change the lighting somehow, how would you like it changed? Assuming a complete rollback to the previous lighting is off the table.

I wouldn't ask for a complete rollback even if I could, as that wouldn't be fair to the people who enjoy the improved graphics even if I somewhat disagree with the style shift.

I actually like the new graphics for some characters! For instance my male elezen turned out quite nicely, and while there are certain things that are a bit different I think he ended up being recreated very faithfully. Male elezen faces had the most issues in the old lighting system in my opinion, so it was really nice to see those problems fixed. Viera also look great in the new lighting and have none of the weird shading issues when viewing them in the same areas (La Noscea daytime while facing the sun in the character creator is a great example).

So I guess to make a long story short I don't expect things to look 100% the same or perfect at all times, but in my opinion some faces could use a little more love to make them more faithful as well as work better in the new lighting system. It's almost definitely more of model level issue, but I think the lighting may need some tweaking as well in order to get the best results for everyone.

[CidHeiral]

I wouldn't ask for a complete rollback even if I could, as that wouldn't be fair to the people who enjoy the improved graphics even if I somewhat disagree with the style shift.

That's nice to hear and very mature. I must say this has been a very pleasant conversation compared to some other interactions in this thread.

I actually like the new graphics for some characters! For instance my male elezen turned out quite nicely, and while there are certain things that are a bit different I think he ended up being recreated very faithfully. Male elezen faces had the most issues in the old lighting system in my opinion, so it was really nice to see those problems fixed. Viera also look great in the new lighting and have none of the weird shading issues when viewing them in the same areas (La Noscea daytime while facing the sun in the character creator is a great example).

So I guess to make a long story short I don't expect things to look 100% the same or perfect at all times, but in my opinion some faces could use a little more love to make them more faithful as well as work better in the new lighting system. It's almost definitely more of model level issue, but I think the lighting may need some tweaking as well in order to get the best results for everyone.

This also illustrates the tricky spot the devs are in. You think your elezen and viera turned out great, but I'm sure there are other people with similar characters that think they're ruined. The lighting could be adjusted with model tweaks to change how light falls on the face, but then you risk other people thinking those model changes ruined the face. I can't imagine what a nightmare it is to parse a mountain of conflicting feedback and make that judgement call. I hope everyone ultimately ends up with something they're happy with though.

Sure, if you think three or more different passes at fixing and responding to things pointed out by the players over several months with (likely) more coming constitutes no effort. They aren't perfect, but...to think they aren't trying, I just don't get it.

For real. When WoW delivered their model update your options were:

1. Enjoy your new model.

2. Uninstall.

(Technically you could choose to use the old models as well at first but they removed that option a short time later.)

[Tatiana]

Personally I love the way my character looks, and I've really enjoyed the graphics update. I think they should continue to work on it and try and try to match the likeness of peoples original characters as much as they possibly can but I also think that realistically there was always bound to be, and always will be differences. The reality is the game is old and graphics/model updates are something I believe MMO's need to invest in over time in order to stay competitive and appealing for both old and new audiences. Every time I came back to FFXIV from playing newer games the fidelity of the graphics became more and more jarring. The old graphics made the game look like it had a blurry sheen over it, the pixelated and flat materials were unappealing, and character models looked soulless and mannequin-like.

I understand that there are people having a hard time adjusting, and I hope the developers are able to find ways for those peoples issues to be alleviated but that is quite honestly a very vocal minority (not discounting their importance by saying that, but it's the truth) the game has needed this for a while now and given that they intend to continue developing this game for at least another decade, this probably won't be the last time updates to graphical fidelity will be needed to some degree.

[Len_]

Personally I love the way my character looks, and I've really enjoyed the graphics update. I think they should continue to work on it and try and try to match the likeness of peoples original characters as much as they possibly can but I also think that realistically there was always bound to be, and always will be differences. The reality is the game is old and graphics/model updates are something I believe MMO's need to invest in over time in order to stay competitive and appealing for both old and new audiences. Every time I came back to FFXIV from playing newer games the fidelity of the graphics became more and more jarring. The old graphics made the game look like it had a blurry sheen over it, the pixelated and flat materials were unappealing, and character models looked soulless and mannequin-like.

I understand that there are people having a hard time adjusting, and I hope the developers are able to find ways for those peoples issues to be alleviated but that is quite honestly a very vocal minority (not discounting their importance by saying that, but it's the truth) the game has needed this for a while now.

Actually, the game DIDN'T need the lips on all the characters flattened out, heavy makeup applied where it wasn't before, and totally incorrect textures and normal maps. You know, the things people actually have grievances over.

[Doopliss]

I understand that there are people having a hard time adjusting, and I hope the developers are able to find ways for those peoples issues to be alleviated but that is quite honestly a very vocal minority (not discounting their importance by saying that, but it's the truth) the game has needed this for a while now and given that they intend to continue developing this game for at least another decade, this probably won't be the last time updates to graphical fidelity will be needed to some degree.

I'm a broken record about this but this is really one of my least favorite arguments people bring up here. Statistically the majority of people are silent regardless of their opinion on matters like this. We have no proof in this specific instance on whether it's one way or the other, and our own personal sample sizes within our own groups mean little. What matters is that there are a lot of customers bothering to be vocal about it in the first place. I know you're not trying to discount the importance of others' opinions, but it feels flippant and incidentally dismissive anyway to just state that as the hard truth when we as individuals can collect little data on something like that.

Anyway, it sure has been seven days since their comment about delaying the announcement by a week. I hope it shows up soon so we can all figure out how the hell they're going forward.

[Tatiana]

I'm a broken record about this but this is really one of my least favorite arguments people bring up here. Statistically the majority of people are silent regardless of their opinion on matters like this. We have no proof in this specific instance on whether it's one way or the other, and our own personal sample sizes within our own groups mean little. What matters is that there are a lot of customers bothering to be vocal about it in the first place. I know you're not trying to discount the importance of others' opinions, but it feels flippant and incidentally dismissive anyway to just state that as the hard truth when we as individuals can collect little data on something like that.

Anyway, it sure has been seven days since their comment about delaying the announcement by a week. I hope it shows up soon so we can all figure out how the hell they're going forward.

I get what you're saying, and you are right we can only base these things off our own experiences with what those around us have said so perhaps I shouldn't have stated it the way that I did. My experience has been that the people in my communities have had a positive response to the graphic and model updates in the discussions about it, so for me it has skewed towards much more positive than negative, so I apologize for coming off as flippant or dismissive as I try to be as objective as I can when approaching any subject of debate. As I said I'm not discounting the importance of the opinions and issues people have about this and again I hope a solution is found for every one of these complaints people have and I hope it can be done in a way that doesn't take away the enjoyment of people on the other side of the fence on the subject, or prevent the game from being improved upon as needed over time.

[Doopliss]

I get what you're saying, and you are right we can only base these things off our own experiences with what those around us have said so perhaps I shouldn't have stated it the way that I did. My experience has been that the people in my communities have had a positive response to the graphic and model updates in the discussions about it, so for me it has skewed towards much more positive than negative, so I apologize for coming off as flippant or dismissive as I try to be as objective as I can when approaching any subject of debate. As I said I'm not discounting the importance of the opinions and issues people have about this and again I hope a solution is found for every one of these complaints people have and I hope it can be done in a way that doesn't take away the enjoyment of people on the other side of the fence on the subject, or prevent the game from being improved upon as needed over time.

I understand. I appreciate your response a lot and I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive. I'm constantly battling my own emotional reactions and objectiveness so I've been struggling a lot with articulating my own replies.

Although I'm not one who generally cares for fidelity, I do agree with you that I do think the game should continue to be improved upon (I was actually genuinely excited for the graphics update until the initial benchmark hit!) and deserves an increase in fidelity--especially since they did have to downgrade from 1.0. I think most people here would agree, too, since very few are actually asking for a rollback.

It's just that not all faces were treated equally and honestly do need to be adjusted more. I think it's disingenuous to say everything looks better or everything looks worse (EDIT: I want to clarify I mean this as a general statement and not in response to anything you said). Personally, I do believe everything can be adjusted in a way that would keep the majority of players happy. Most of the problems are, after all, small fixes. It's just that there are so many of them altogether, across different face types that makes me worried, since it feels like the art team didn't get enough time or oversight for this part of the graphics update in the first place.