Remove AoE healing from non healer jobs

[Crushnight]

As title says that is what should be a step(not the only one) the game should take if it wants to maintain the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps.

PCT does not need an AoE heal, that should be for PCT only same for their shield, it should be for themselves only.

Mnk does not need an AoE heal, self heals fine, not party wide

Smn does not need AoE regen it should be for Smn only

DNC does not need AoE heal, should be for themselves and Dance partner only.

War should not have an AoE shield+Regen, make it a AoE shield at least or AoE shield with self regen at most.


These changes would keep each job’s self sustain intact for themselves, but take away their ability to be able to keep a party alive longer, it’s not their job to maintain and manage the party’s hp it’s the healer role that should do, they should only have to manage their own hp at most for dps, using mitigation on top for tanks.

Healer role should be the only role to have AoE healing in it, should not have any AoE healing within the tank or dps roles.

[Shialan]

How much health do these AoE heals recover?

[Supersnow845]

How much health do these AoE heals recover?

Besides DNC which is 500 and SIO which is 1200 the rest are all 400 potency

That’s the same strength as the healers bread and butter heals like rapture and indom, costs the DPS nothing and when you have 4 DPS and 2 tanks you can rotate them very efficiently with near no effort

[Rithy255]

Besides DNC which is 500 and SIO which is 1200 the rest are all 400 potency

That’s the same strength as the healers bread and butter heals like rapture and indom, costs the DPS nothing and when you have 4 DPS and 2 tanks you can rotate them very efficiently with near no effort

Points like this forget that maim and mend is a passive. DPS/Tank heals (that aren't casters) are by default 30% weaker in healing which might not sound like a lot but healing from those said jobs aren't as strong as they look

for example a 1000 Potency heal on a tank is more like 700 potency, a 400 potency heal is more like 280 potency ECT. This is why paladins clemency is actually slightly worse then Cure 2 on the same item level gear, Divine veil healing effect is actually more like 280 (so basically 300 potency) when it comes to healing ect.

People need to keep the maim and mend passive when discussing these sorts of potencies.

[KisaiTenshi]

As title says that is what should be a step(not the only one) the game should take if it wants to maintain the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps.

How often do Tanks and DPS use their self heals anyway? It seems like Tanks use their self-heals (at least DRK) right in their combo rotation but I only see DPS self-heals when things are going sideways.

If a job's identity is to have a heal, and it isn't the healer (RDM/SMN/PLD) then it should cap at the same strength as "cure 1", but only have an CD/oCD recast time. If for some reason they're triggering a heal that isn't random (DNC's is basically random), however, they basically have two self heals:

Curing Waltz
Restores own HP and the HP of all nearby party members.
Cure Potency: 300
Additional Effect: Party member designated as your Dance Partner will also heal self and nearby party members
and
Second Wind
Instantly restores own HP.
Cure Potency: 500

Now, Second Wind has a 120s CD, but is as powerful as "Cure 1". The problem comes from having BOTH of these.

RDM's vercure is 350 potency, but can be used twice, which actually makes it better than "Cure 1" when applied to the same target. That makes it almost as good as Cure 2.

Monk has both bloodbath and second wind, AND it also has Riddle of Earth.

Summoner is ... complicated. Basically you need to do this to access that HP recovery AOE:
Summon Carbuncle -> Summon Phoenix -> Everlasting Flight (pet action) / Rekindle

Since the pets are not persistent, the ability to trigger that is rather time consuming and not worth it for a single heal.

Honestly, I'd leave summoner alone if only because it's hard to pull off, and casting physick is usually not worth it.

What "could" be done is to stack a debuff when the DPS heals are used that are similar to the "Scalebound" debuff from the monster hunter world crossover, where the next heal that doesn't come from a healer, heals nothing and it only drops off when a healer heals.

With the tank I'm of a mixed opinion since clearly a dark knight would be unplayable if they had to avoid completing the combo. Warrior however has 6 separate actions that recover HP. Why. Paladin has 10, of which one is a direct "heal a target." Dark Knight has 3, Gunbreaker has 2.

If we went with the "strip tanks of all self-healing" every tank would be broken except Gunbreaker and Dark Knight, and both of them would still be partially broken since it's part of their basic combo. Any changes to tanks to remove most or all of the self-healing would have to come with changing the knobs on mitigation so people don't just prefer the most unkillable tank.

[Rongway]

RDM's vercure is 350 potency, but can be used twice, which actually makes it better than "Cure 1" when applied to the same target. That makes it almost as good as Cure 2.

No, that's not how Dualcast works. Each spell in the Dualcast still costs one GCD. Dualcasting Vercure+Vercure is not better than Cure, let alone "almost as good as Cure 2". In the time a Red Mage can cast Vercure+Vercure a WHM could cast Cure2+Cure2 or Solace+Solace.

[TsubameMikage]

How often do Tanks and DPS use their self heals anyway?

Paladin and Warrior use it all the time, can't speak as much to the other two tanks.

RDM's vercure is 350 potency, but can be used twice, which actually makes it better than "Cure 1" when applied to the same target. That makes it almost as good as Cure 2.

Monk has both bloodbath and second wind, AND it also has Riddle of Earth.

Summoner is ... complicated. Basically you need to do this to access that HP recovery AOE:
Summon Carbuncle -> Summon Phoenix -> Everlasting Flight (pet action) / Rekindle

Monk also has Earth's Reply, an AOE heal. Plus, Second Wind has been buffed across the board for all melee.

If we went with the "strip tanks of all self-healing" every tank would be broken except Gunbreaker and Dark Knight, and both of them would still be partially broken since it's part of their basic combo. Any changes to tanks to remove most or all of the self-healing would have to come with changing the knobs on mitigation so people don't just prefer the most unkillable tank.

Paladin wouldn't be broken if it lost its heal, but Warrior would need something else if it lost it's heal.. but if they were only applicable to themselves (So no casting on others), and toned down.. that would give some use back to healers.

[KisaiTenshi]

Paladin and Warrior use it all the time, can't speak as much to the other two tanks.



Monk also has Earth's Reply, an AOE heal. Plus, Second Wind has been buffed across the board for all melee.



Paladin wouldn't be broken if it lost its heal, but Warrior would need something else if it lost it's heal.. but if they were only applicable to themselves (So no casting on others), and toned down.. that would give some use back to healers.

Thinking about this in the other direction, "What level of AOE heal by a tank or DPS wouldn't be game ruining"

Option 1:
None. Probably the preferred option for the healers. That would require changing how several jobs work.

Option 2:
Combo only. So something like BRD or DNC might have a combo where every 8th cast does a either a solo cure or solo cure-3. Under the hood the game just enforces a 16 second recast for it, so it can't stomp on the healer's job, and it's only at the end of the combo. Tanks only get to use the heal after a successful mitigation combo so they can't just make themselves unkillable from the beginning.

Option 3:
GCD Items only. Players bringing pots that recover HP into the content can only use them when a party-shared healing GCD is open. If any heal has been cast, then the shared GCD is reset. Same goes for MP-recovering. All other buff pots that there is no player-cast equivalent use the players oGCD.

This would prevent players from using healing items if the healer is up, and provide an indicator that the healer is actually doing their job.

Option 4:
Bouncing the healing job. So a healer has to do the healing, and as long as the healer is "up" no other player can cast their self heal, AOE heal or healer-provided buffs, either via skill, action, cast, or item. If the healer KO's, the self-healing casts now activate in combos. This would still require some changes to tanks, but would probably just keep all the self-heal buttons on DPS disabled.


To me, the path of least resistance would be making healing on DPS and Tanks "less accessible" (eg, no "second wind" instant heals), it would only be something they can use if they are completing their combos, which would make it continue to be useful in solo instances, and when there is no healer, only then do they get to use healing items. When the healer is present in a party, the game changes the frequency of the self-heal in the combo. So the result in a solo instance might be 1-2-3-4-5(heal) but in a 4-man it might be 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-5(heal). They can also make this work by not activating the heal combo unless the HP is actually at 40% or below. So if a healer is over-healing to the point that everyone never drops below 40%, then the healing action never activates.

[Bright-Flower]

Thinking about this in the other direction, "What level of AOE heal by a tank or DPS wouldn't be game ruining"

Option 1:
None. Probably the preferred option for the healers. That would require changing how several jobs work.

Option 2:
Combo only. So something like BRD or DNC might have a combo where every 8th cast does a either a solo cure or solo cure-3. Under the hood the game just enforces a 16 second recast for it, so it can't stomp on the healer's job, and it's only at the end of the combo. Tanks only get to use the heal after a successful mitigation combo so they can't just make themselves unkillable from the beginning.

Option 3:
GCD Items only. Players bringing pots that recover HP into the content can only use them when a party-shared healing GCD is open. If any heal has been cast, then the shared GCD is reset. Same goes for MP-recovering. All other buff pots that there is no player-cast equivalent use the players oGCD.

This would prevent players from using healing items if the healer is up, and provide an indicator that the healer is actually doing their job.

Option 4:
Bouncing the healing job. So a healer has to do the healing, and as long as the healer is "up" no other player can cast their self heal, AOE heal or healer-provided buffs, either via skill, action, cast, or item. If the healer KO's, the self-healing casts now activate in combos. This would still require some changes to tanks, but would probably just keep all the self-heal buttons on DPS disabled.


To me, the path of least resistance would be making healing on DPS and Tanks "less accessible" (eg, no "second wind" instant heals), it would only be something they can use if they are completing their combos, which would make it continue to be useful in solo instances, and when there is no healer, only then do they get to use healing items. When the healer is present in a party, the game changes the frequency of the self-heal in the combo. So the result in a solo instance might be 1-2-3-4-5(heal) but in a 4-man it might be 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-5(heal). They can also make this work by not activating the heal combo unless the HP is actually at 40% or below. So if a healer is over-healing to the point that everyone never drops below 40%, then the healing action never activates.

No thanks. If healers aren't having to heal that's more of an encounter design issue. Jobs having a bit of utility is fun and I'd no sooner take them away from non healesr as I would take away the few non glare spam damage buttons that healers still have. Maybe some individual ones could use balancing here and there, but I don't agree with any of these options.

[kaynide]

How often do Tanks and DPS use their self heals anyway?

As Paladin I can solo a lot of trials, and bring it over a healer in things like treasure hunt or deep dungeon. It's significantly more useful than a healer taking up a slot in the party. Doubly so since there are DPS mages that can raise if the need arises.

Hell I can probably solo a lot of dungeons much earlier than unsync intends, but I've simply not bothered with it. It's almost Blue Mage broken.