DPS Simplification - Just do Ultimates!

[Valence]

It was just a handy example of the dungeon simplification.
Of course one can do it way better than totorak itself. But "mechanics" can be a bit more interessting than "Dodge the orange glowing danger area"

Like Ramiee said V&C Dungeons could have been more puzzle dungeon and experiment for more interresting dungeon design than what they have been at the end. ^^

I do like the current Variant dungeons, they're chill to do solo on my own and if I want to figure out all the solutions on my own there is a decent amount of them that aren't that obvious. Now we can argue that we want more solutions, more paths, harder puzzles, easier puzzles and whatnot, and my main gripe with them right now is mostly that they always follow the same formulaic patterns, which is not always something you'd want for all your content imo, especially content like this, and that once you have done all paths, you're essentially done with it, which is a lot of development resource for now much replayability.

However in their current state, Variants are great and provide something chill and unique.

I'd definitely like however to get roulette/daily modes of those where the puzzles are removed, and where you'd get random path each time, which would really alleviate the heavy repetition of roulettes over time, while introducing some chaos and rng to make runs more unique from each other. And if more normal dungeons could also follow that pattern, that'd be dope.

I actually wouldn't mind that, I'm of the opinion that the original Blackrock Depths in WoW is still the best dungeon ever made in an MMO.

One big reason I can see it not work in XIV is simply the game's loot system.
BRD was so good because no matter what path you took there was usually something useful to get from one of the bosses, so your time was well-spent.

XIV on the other hand rarely has anything useful to gain out of dungeons besides the currency/exp at the end, the gear is almost always worse than what you already have and in general not very interesting, it's all just stat sticks.
When the only worthwhile thing to gain from a dungeon is the tomestones/exp on completion it quickly becomes a game of "how fast can I finish this?"

I understand that for a lot of people dungeons are chores that they want to finish as fast as possible, and that's probably a huge failing either on the community itself or the design of the game in general, but I do like dungeons and don't give a crap if the dungeon takes longer, actually if stuff doesn't melt instantly I can actually take advantage of my DPS job that can't always insta burst like tanks and healers. All of this even if today less so due to the abysmally bland battle system we have. I'd love more little random events and alternative paths (attributed at random, else the players would always assign one the meta path and never go for the others), but if I play dungeons and I don't think I'm assuming too much by saying this, a lot of people as well do it for the standard dungeon progress clearing trash and killing bosses.

If I want to find keys, solve puzzles and whatnot, I'll go play V&C instead. Puzzles where the solution is known and fixed are only fun the first couple of times and that's the huge weakness in the replayability of Variants. Puzzles that are randomized on the other hand are closer to deep dungeons than carefully crafted standard dungeons, which still doesn't fit the bill here in this particular case in my opinion.

I also have no idea what Blackrock is, I never played wow and do not intend to.

[Ayalu]

Black Rock Depths are a huge Mega Dungeon in World of Warcraft, while i would like to have something like that in FF14...that would be a singular exceptional dungeon. Even for WoW its unqiue in scope.
Just so you can imagine that would be more like as if a Area Map would be a Dungeon you fight trough, with puzzles, diverse quests inside of the dungeon (quests inside of dungeons is normal in WoW), encounters and Bosses.
Also of course its not just a corridor.
According to a quick google search the average completion time is 4-6 hours but that assumes you do everything.

But again while i would like to have something akin to that it would be a unique thing in FF14 aswell and is far far far beyond the scope i envisioned xD

[Rithy255]

Yeah i'm not a fan of "just play ultimate bro". It's always been a poor argument mainly used by people who play ultimate's but look down on anyone wanting something outside of just content difficulty

It's such a common argument against anyone wanting better job design that it ignores the point that better job gameplay will lead to ultimate's feeling more fun and replayable, if those said jobs felt more unique and fun, reclears would feel more enjoyable when going for different jobs or roles.

[Ramiee]

Black Rock Depths are a huge Mega Dungeon in World of Warcraft, while i would like to have something like that in FF14...that would be a singular exceptional dungeon. Even for WoW its unqiue in scope.
Just so you can imagine that would be more like as if a Area Map would be a Dungeon you fight trough, with puzzles, diverse quests inside of the dungeon (quests inside of dungeons is normal in WoW), encounters and Bosses.
Also of course its not just a corridor.
According to a quick google search the average completion time is 4-6 hours but that assumes you do everything.

But again while i would like to have something akin to that it would be a unique thing in FF14 aswell and is far far far beyond the scope i envisioned xD

Personally I would love BD inspired location in the new Eureka/Bozja zone. Instead of the raid thing we have, having something like BD for small groups to go in and different progression levels accessed throughout the levelling of the zone or something. That would be so awesome. Just having more open dungeons or raids appearing in anything whether its V&C, Eureka 3 or something brand new would be so good.

[Flana]

snip

You're trying really hard to dodge the actual argument made, and its hilariously obvious. The argument about it being a business is pure nonsense, because they are already committed to adding new jobs every expansion. So I'll ask, again, why not just make new jobs to fit this so called niche of players that only want the most braindead of job design? Pictomancer could have been a 3 button snoozefest. Viper could have been a 3 button snoozefest. They did not have to lobotomize a job that already existed and utterly destroying its archetype to satisfy that niche when they are already designing new jobs.

New jobs, by the way, that still haven't filled the niche that Summoner used to fill. Want a DoT job? Get out, you're not welcome here. Want a pet job? Just wait for a limited job thats banned from doing anything relevant or evergreen. Wow what a great business decision. Truly what we should all be learning from.

[Mostly_Raxus]

I have a message for all the dps out there complaining about removing positionals, removing DoTs, removing rotational complexity etc.

STFU and go play ultimates

If you want to use all your buttons? Ultimates You’re a Summoner and want your repetitive rotation to be fun? Ultimates . Melee sad about positionals barely existing? Ultimates

New DPS are going to be STRUGGLING so hard that they should have their entire role reduced to a single button. That way nobody can ever be stressed in a dungeon ever again. If you want to use more than 1 button as a dps? Play. Fucking. Ultimates

Very sad that I have to specify but this post is intended as ironic. I’m sick of people acting like Ultimates are some kind of fucking super remedy that will magically remove any and all dissatisfaction with the game, and if you’re ever unhappy you basically deserve it for being friendless static-less scum bag who hasn’t cleared ultimates. Yet somehow people genuinely think telling Healers to fuck off and play ultimates is a reasonable and legitimate response to people disliking healer gameplay

well then how would i continue to whine for months about a game making changes to suit me when i wont even take the initiative to unsub and show them i'm a customer and not a mindless consumer?!!?!?! HOW I ASK YOU!

[Arkdra]

Jokes on you OP I think that cutting dots, and shaving off frictious parts of the assorted dps is a good thing and I am neutral on positionals so wouldn't care if they got cut. Precisely because if it raises the floor of the idiots I roulette into, then that's a win for me. And you know what? Seems to be working, I would absolutely take any rando dps these days over a rando from back in ARR, Hw, or SB. Mostly a wash from shb though.

[HikariKurosawa]

You're trying really hard to dodge the actual argument made, and its hilariously obvious. The argument about it being a business is pure nonsense, because they are already committed to adding new jobs every expansion. So I'll ask, again, why not just make new jobs to fit this so called niche of players that only want the most braindead of job design? Pictomancer could have been a 3 button snoozefest. Viper could have been a 3 button snoozefest. They did not have to lobotomize a job that already existed and utterly destroying its archetype to satisfy that niche when they are already designing new jobs.

New jobs, by the way, that still haven't filled the niche that Summoner used to fill. Want a DoT job? Get out, you're not welcome here. Want a pet job? Just wait for a limited job thats banned from doing anything relevant or evergreen. Wow what a great business decision. Truly what we should all be learning from.

Dots have always been the most unpopular thing in mmos and the majority dislike them. We have bard, we don't need anymore timer management based jobs. Music is all about timing anyway makes sense that bard is the one to manage timers.

There's no reason for any job to be TOO simple. There is a huge reason to make nearly every job simple enough. They are 100% aiming for a "goldilocks" level of job difficulty so that everyone is free to pick their own fantasy.

If you want hard content, PLAY HARD CONTENT. It's that simple. If you want something different, PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME. It's clear what the devs are doing and it's not going to change the way you want it to. You can "snip" my argument and ignore every point I've made as much as you want, but it's the truth and it's not even an inconvenient truth. It is good that it is the way I said it is. Just play harder content.

Also, old summoner was literally a bad job. Summons in final fantasy are not about pets and never have been. They are about a flashy short lived summon that goes away after doing its thing. Summoners are NOT about dots either. There is nothing in the job fantasy that even remotely relates to dots and it was just an evolution of the arcanist class that carries over into scholar and for some reason carried over to both jobs.

Dots are bad. The game has enough dots already. I don't mind if they make a new job that has dots, I just won't touch it and the majority of other players wont either because dots are the most unenjoyable gameplay ever. Most people like flashy nukes, they don't like dots.

[Connor]

well then how would i continue to whine for months about a game making changes to suit me when i wont even take the initiative to unsub and show them i'm a customer and not a mindless consumer?!!?!?! HOW I ASK YOU!

Stay subbed but only log on to afk in Limsa Lominsa and make forum posts. That’s how you really show them.

Alternatively, start a nightclub, but instead of dancing everyone starts chanting ‘YOSHIP COME TO ME’, thereby binding him to the house until he’s ready to fulfill thy wishes.

I mean, realistically I personally support whatever choice people decide to make regarding their dissatisfaction. Unless it’s telling those who are unhappy to go play ultimates, obviously lol.

Content should be fun at every level and if people are dissatisfied with what is currently they have every right to ask for that content to be looked at; they shouldn’t have to go up if they don’t want to. The argument isn’t about whether ‘ultimates or savage’ are fun, it’s about the fact that many people say general content simply isn’t (It’s me, I’m the many people)

[RyuuZero]

as far as I recall, Xenosys Vex once said that the current problem of FFXIV is that the Jobs play dull and that's the devs excuse to make harder ultimates.. where he proposed that Jobs need to be a bit more entertaining to play but therefor the game can be made a bit more forgiving..

Though currently as someone who doesn't engage in "difficult" content I think the biggest mistake are the addition of the pre-Shadowbringers Trust Dungeon Reworks.. because all you do now is dodging AoEs.. and some Dungeons may have better lighting but way way WAAAAY worse Gameplay! I really wonder if the people who worked on those Dungeon Reworks came to the Higher Ups, told them that "those dungeon mechanics are too hard to program Trusts for, please rework those dungeons so we can add trusts better", and they gone through with that plan.. because ARR MSQ Dungeons are now Limb Time Wasting Experiences where they were before at least selling the player the Illusion of an Adventure. Many old players do not care about the New Player Experience. New Player only hear from elder Players how long and boring ARR is, then the New Players playthrough ARR themselves and discover all the political build up that ARR did and Old Players like to forget.. but also.. how is Nabriales a 8men fight where you enter that part of the MSQ alone. But Steps of Faith is a Part where you gather various adventurers to defend the Steps of Faith is a Solo Instance... WHAT!?!?!?

ARR's Gameplay Legacy has been squandered.