DPS Simplification - Just do Ultimates!

[Ayalu]

You still dodge every argument Hikari.
Multiple talk about diverse aspect of designs, and you irgnore everything and say the same things again and again without aknowledging the different arguments.
I showed you how your argumentation falls flat how simplification affects every aspect of the game. And that "Harder content" doesnt effect affect crticism.

Which is probably the reason you ignore it.

[Azurarok]

We've been able to run Grand Company Squadrons through multiple ARR dungeons before trusts, including old totorak. The problem imo was that all the optional detours and odd mechanics often slowed down runs considerably when we had people new to the dungeon, and it made getting those on roulettes annoying.

I'd guess dps/tanks getting more mitigation and self-healing was also for roulettes too. It makes healers less a point of failure in something players of all skill levels run daily.

[remiff]

Especially since Ultimates are the most niche content in the game, considering that savage already find them so,
and the participation/clear rate is ridiculously low compared to the number of max-level players who have completed them.

Personally, I find it completely stupid to homogenize jobs and make their rotations insipid, because almost all of the game's content is already relatively simple.

Just because rotations are easy doesn't mean there will be more participation in this hyper-niche content that doesn't concern the majority of players.

Especially since players who engage in Ultimate content clearly won't mind putting in a bit more effort into their rotations,
the rotations have never been excessively difficult.
The only time when rotations were a bit more complex was during Heavensward.

And the best period for jobs rotations was clearly Stormblood; it was the perfect middle ground that was rewarding.

[KageTokage]

DoTs are fun when you have additional mechanics that actually play off of them like WoW Warlock's Seed of Corruption which is basically a bomb that stores DoT damage then unleashes it in an AoE when its duration expires. Heck, even simpler examples like Bane on SB SMN/SCH were fun to put to use when applicable.

Unfortunately now MNK is getting Demolish turned into a generic back positional instead of a DoT in DT so the pruning continues.

[KageTokage]

You should probably bring out hard evidence of the "vast majority" hating DoT-focused playstyles because XIV's aversion to such has always felt more like the devs just not wanting to have to balance around something with significantly different mechanics.

[HikariKurosawa]

You should probably bring out hard evidence of the "vast majority" hating DoT-focused playstyles because XIV's aversion to such has always felt more like the devs just not wanting to have to balance around something with significantly different mechanics.

It's right in front of you. The game is a business, decisions are made based on what is profitable. Dots are basically at the bare minimum of implementation. They still exist, but they barely exist. If dots were actually as popular as you imply they would be extremely prolific because it would increase player engagement and therefore increase the profit of the game. Capitalism is pretty convenient you know? You can assess what is popular really easily because the Devs will structure the game around what people like the most. They have to.

Now, would I object to them adding a dot job that actually makes sense? No. It would be cool if they added a bio mage or something along those lines. I wouldn't play it, but there is a demographic that isn't really being pandered to and I think it could be cool. It's likely to be added later rather than sooner, but they're running out of other jobs to implement so maybe next expansion it is a possibility. SMN should never have been the dot mage, it made zero sense thematically.

[Ramiee]

It's right in front of you. The game is a business, decisions are made based on what is profitable. Dots are basically at the bare minimum of implementation. They still exist, but they barely exist. If dots were actually as popular as you imply they would be extremely prolific because it would increase player engagement and therefore increase the profit of the game. Capitalism is pretty convenient you know? You can assess what is popular really easily because the Devs will structure the game around what people like the most. They have to.

Now, would I object to them adding a dot job that actually makes sense? No. It would be cool if they added a bio mage or something along those lines. I wouldn't play it, but there is a demographic that isn't really being pandered to and I think it could be cool. It's likely to be added later rather than sooner, but they're running out of other jobs to implement so maybe next expansion it is a possibility. SMN should never have been the dot mage, it made zero sense thematically.

DPS Pet jobs are also extremely popular look at hunter in wow yet there's zero DPS pet jobs in the game. If you say they aren't popular you're a liar. The whole it's a good business decision argument is bull, because dark knight would be a DPS then.

[HikariKurosawa]

DPS Pet jobs are also extremely popular look at hunter in wow yet there's zero DPS pet jobs in the game. If you say they aren't popular you're a liar. The whole it's a good business decision argument is bull, because dark knight would be a DPS then.

Pets are not why hunter is popular lol. Hunter is popular because it is a ranged class based on instant cast abilities. physical ranged playstyle is the reason why hunter is so popular. Look at how many hunters in WoW don't use a pet.

It's the same with warlock, most prefer to just keep imp out and let it throw fireballs while they throw shadowbolts out. Pet jobs are pretty niche, but you're free to pull statements out of god knows where.

[Shurrikhan]

Pets are not why hunter is popular lol. Hunter is popular because it is a ranged class based on instant cast abilities. physical ranged playstyle is the reason why hunter is so popular. Look at how many hunters in WoW don't use a pet.

It's the same with warlock, most prefer to just keep imp out and let it throw fireballs while they throw shadowbolts out. Pet jobs are pretty niche, but you're free to pull statements out of god knows where.

One of three specs (by far and away the most popular) is themed entirely around pets. Two of three specs need a pet out for their core rotational abilities to work. Three of three specs need a pet out for their group utilities and core passive buff to work. Only one spec can forgo a pet by actively taking a talent, and it's frequently a slight damage loss in single-target to do so.

I'll agree that pets aren't likely the whole as to why Hunters are popular, but all but one spec has (infrequent) cast or channel times and magical abilities, with the only spec not to have either being the pet-centric spec, but as for "how many Hunters in WoW" don't use a pet, historically (was always an option for at most two of three specs and viable only for one), now, or on the Beta... they're very few.

But hey,

you're free to pull statements out of god knows where.

Assassination rogue, you mean the one that passively applies dots aside from bleeds? It's popular because mutilate and envenom are insanely strong. Dagger rogue has nukes and feels amazing. You're the one who is wrong and I'm sorry but it is what it is. Dots will always be the low point of mmo for the majority.

You do realize where a good half of Envenom's damage comes from, right? And what the other half has historically required?

...If not, it's in Assassination Rogue's venoms ("poisons"). Meaning your non-physical DoTs.
And if you actually wanted "dagger rogue nukes"... you'd have gone Subtlety for the far more powerful finishers and Shadowstrike (previously called Ambush).

Did I say that EVERYONE hates dots? No. Do the majority dislike them? Yes.

Yet there's little to no evidence for this, largely because DoT-centrism, portion of periodic damage, bankability, and ramp are all ultimately separate pieces of spec/job/profession/class design.

Unless an enemy would die before its duration completes, most DoTs are essentially nukes -- soft CDs that recharge separately per target and can therefore be reapplied early for utility purposes and give an advantage in multi-target situations beyond simply switching from ST spam to AoE spam.

Shadow Priest, for instance, has often gotten more of its damage from periodic damage than Affliction, and yet people will call the latter a DoT class and Shadow Priest not.

The game is a business, decisions are made based on what is profitable. Dots are basically at the bare minimum of implementation.

This warrant would offer some evidence for "the majority of people dislike anything to do with DoTs" if and only if the devs consistently and solely made decisions in regard to job design that would land them the greatest amount of profit. Admitted errors and oversights, along with seemingly rather poor analysis of data, would indicate that's not likely the case, however. (And haven't you, yourself, complimented the devs on 'sticking to their initial desired vision regardless of player wants' in their job designs?)

SMN should never have been the dot mage, it made zero sense thematically.

I don't particularly care one way or the other, but... there was indeed thematic reason. Conjurers (and now Thaumaturges) channel through the keepers and resonance of elements through a more innate/innatured connection to them. Arcanists do not have those innate connections, and must instead rely on manipulations of aether quantities itself without element; those manipulations tend to take the form of extreme nauseating afflictions. Summoners and Scholars may then add a focus to their arcanistry in order to emulate / "cheat into being" other magic forms, such as force barriers (through faerie magics) and (as of Endwalker) elemental reconfigurations (via "summon" nuke spells, whereas previously one relied on their Egi for elemental damage).

(The odd one is Thaumaturge, as their source of magic was previously archetypical/"divine", and now it's just the other half of Conjury.)

Whether it fits your notion of a Summoner (be that as a reskinned White Mage, reskinned Black Mage, hybrid of the two, or something focused more on what isn't merely renamed WHM/BLM spells) or not, it made thematic sense within the world established here, in XIV.

[HikariKurosawa]

I'll agree that pets aren't likely the whole as to why Hunters are popular, but all but one spec has (infrequent) cast or channel times and magical abilities, with the only spec not to have either being the pet-centric spec, but as for "how many Hunters in WoW" don't use a pet, historically (was always an option for at most two of three specs and viable only for one), now, or on the Beta... they're very few.

You mean the most popular hunter spec is the one that only has instant cast abilities and is the most mobile class in the entire game? I get it, I played BM hunter too. The pets were fun, but the reason I played the spec was because it had the simplest rotation and had the most mobility by far.

Thanks for making my point for me, as it's been a while since I played WoW.