new option: vote wipe

[kaynide]

Re: ToS

It is not against the ToS to solo a fight once the party wipes.

As per numerous live letters and examples given, people can disagree on how to play, and can/should discuss it in a civil manner. Do note that specifically telling a player, including a tank, that they’re not allowed to play their job as it is designed IS against ToS. Asking and discussing is encouraged, forcing others to play how you want to play is not.

And before you say “but the tank is forcing you to sit and watch!”, they are not. It is not their job to keep you alive. And it is certainly not their fault that you died.

If a healer refuses to raise you, then sure, you might have a case.

Now if you wanna talk about what’s polite, then sure, the tank probably SHOULD kill themselves and rest the fight, but it is important to distinguish between set rules and polite manners.

All of this would be solved by just giving tanks a long-cooldown raise. Make it 5 minutes, I don’t care. That would alleviate a lot of healer drama and allow healers to die without dooming the party.

[PercibelTheren]

Most boss arenas where it matters have a death wall or cliff you can use to reset the fight quickly.

Most, yes. Not all. Barbariccia Ex was super annoying with this because wiping took forever if the last people standing were tanks.

[PercibelTheren]

What's wrong with that?

Watching a guy having a slapfight with the boss for 10 minutes and then die to a mech with the boss at 1% is not exactly riveting gameplay.

[PercibelTheren]

Three types of players die routinely or often.
1. New players
2. Bad players
3. Lazy players.

Also "players who last got this content in their roulettes about a year ago and have completely forgotten the mechanics". They usually remember pretty quickly but they can die sometimes, too.

[Rehayem]

The party shouldn't be punished by staying dead on the floor for 10 minutes because tanks have overpowered self sustain. It's griefing at this point, because it's disregarding people's time.

[Valence]

Neither is it normal to not try and clear the fight.

That's an interesting strawman. You've never been a dps that did every mechanic perfectly, used its few self heals, but that still died because the healer died? But no, it's on you for dying somehow.

And that's normal. What's not normal is the tank not dying as well past a point. It's never been a problem before ShB. Never once I have seen that ludicrous problem, and in ShB it was uncommon enough because it mostly concerned WARs that could actually use their Nascent right with their damage burst.

[KisaiTenshi]

This happens so infrequently, its not even an issue worth addressing.

Nope. It happens more often the easier the fight is. Truth is, it happens more often in the dungeons people are not excited to get in the roulette's (eg ARR leveling, MSQ, and some Alliance Raid's) and people are just really annoyed that they spend 20 minutes to 2 hours waiting for the queue to pop, only to have to spend half of it on the floor.

If the fight is hard, then the tank will just wipe anyway. If it's too easy from the ilevel creep, then they're more likely to try and do it when the healers KO.

As for "should you?" If the boss has less than 10% HP, I don't think many people are going to give the tank grief for it. If it has more than that, then I'd say you're holding the party hostage, especially if the party in the chat is going "wipe please"

[Jeeqbit]

The thing is, he isn't wrong that is against ToS.

They must be wrong because fights don't always kill players even if they try and there aren't always death walls. You also can't really know the circumstances or intent or if they even read the chat while fighting. Overall, there just wouldn't likely be enough evidence to action. Telling a player to die to the mechanics could also be seen as making a demand.

It could be against ToS if you are rude in chat but we aren't talking about that and we'd most likely be too busy fighting to focus on chat.

It falls under "lack of consideration" and "griefing".

I am considering them by clearing the duty for them instead of potentially keeping them there for 60 minutes with no progress.

Also, who is griefing who? Think about it. In a recent duty, the healer died, and the other 3 of us cleared the fight without them. Were we griefing for not dying so the healer could participate? Come on. We are gamers and wanted to finish the fight. We shouldn't have to wipe just because a party member died.

In another recent dungeon, me (as a melee DPS) and a tank kept being the last survivors and duo'd the bosses together, because the others consistently died. Were we griefing to finish the fight? We were just being gamers and getting it done.

You've never been a dps that did every mechanic perfectly, used its few self heals, but that still died because the healer died?

I have, but sometimes I've survived. Depends on the fight and if the tank uses their self-heals on me tbh. A recent case I remember where I died despite my best efforts, the PLD didn't clemency me or even use Intervention on me, which would have been easy and then we'd have duo'd the boss.

Not really a problem to me personally though. I could just watch the fight, or watch something on YouTube or go afk for a few minutes.

What's not normal is the tank not dying as well past a point. It's never been a problem before ShB. Never once I have seen that ludicrous problem

So, to be clear, I did solo bosses in Stormblood, but it wasn't as common. I remember soloing Keeper of the Lake last boss as a WAR, the second boss of The Fractal Continuum (Hard) as a PLD, Gubal Library (Hard) last boss as a WAR (was rather challenging at the time), I forget if I actually solo'd but I probably finished off The Burn a bunch of times as a PLD.

in ShB it was uncommon enough because it mostly concerned WARs that could actually use their Nascent right with their damage burst.

Agreed. I solo'd things with WAR in ShB, most memorably the last boss of Malikah's Well, but I had to be a very skilled WAR to do it and align mitigation with its burst and heal during its downtime. Same when I solo'd the last boss of Amaurot as a DRK. That's how I truly think it should be. Possible but not easy, so you have to align cooldowns perfectly and align them with the boss's own burst phase. WAR's heal was only at its best if they used it in combination with Fell Cleave or Inner Chaos, whereas now it's good no matter what. Not to mention the battle system changes and syncs making old fights easier.

[Len_]

Vote wipe is dumb. If I'm at the point of needing to vote to stop a griefing tank, why would I want to reset and continue playing with such a person? I don't want to have to get a consensus in order to free myself from that situation. In that case I don't give a flying flip what everyone else wants to do. Just let me be able to hit the Leave button while incapacitated. Vote wipe can still exist I guess but it really is not an effective fix to the actual problem that you can be held indefinitely (or until the timeout) in an instance against your will by another player not cooperating.

[SannaR]

Re: ToS

It is not against the ToS to solo a fight once the party wipes.

As per numerous live letters and examples given, people can disagree on how to play, and can/should discuss it in a civil manner. Do note that specifically telling a player, including a tank, that they’re not allowed to play their job as it is designed IS against ToS. Asking and discussing is encouraged, forcing others to play how you want to play is not.

And before you say “but the tank is forcing you to sit and watch!”, they are not. It is not their job to keep you alive. And it is certainly not their fault that you died.

If a healer refuses to raise you, then sure, you might have a case.

Now if you wanna talk about what’s polite, then sure, the tank probably SHOULD kill themselves and rest the fight, but it is important to distinguish between set rules and polite manners.

All of this would be solved by just giving tanks a long-cooldown raise. Make it 5 minutes, I don’t care. That would alleviate a lot of healer drama and allow healers to die without dooming the party.

You mean giving PLD back their ability to use raise?