Final Fantasy XIV's Trinity System is Broken

[Milkbeard]

^ I am choosing to ignore this comment because they're not actually adding anything to the conversation. If they don't know what my point is, they can re-read my comments.

Same, lol

TOP? Trick run happened, doesn't mean even 1 full percentage of TOP players are re-clearing like that.

If content was harder, all roles would be needed. Its the easiest and strongest plan. Go in with a standard comp.

Ez content? yea go in four to eight of (insert role).

There is no evidence suggesting it is any easier otherwise.

[lulunami]

Can you imagine having the tank suddenly decide "Eh, I'm not feeling this, going to play DPS now" and turn off their tank stance? You ever played ESO with 'fake' tanks/healers? That's what happens, and it's awful, and it would be 10 times worse in FFXIV.

Tanks actually used to turn off tank stance in dungeons in order to do higher dps. Tank stance used to reduce damage but increase enmity. Tanks like WAR had so much life-steal, it was better for them to do that to kill the mobs faster. You would barely have to heal them as a healer. WAR was overpowered even back in Heavensward (3.0). You just pop a cooldown like Vengeance and Blood for Blood to compensate for turning off tank stance after you have so much enmity on mobs.

[Turtledeluxe]

- Ultimates may be being cleared without healers in a tiny % of cases but that % increases as you scale down difficulty and increase life age of the expansion. Ultimates are a tiny % of the game and while balance within them is critical, it means very little when the rest of the massive game feels like nonsense.

- A reaper being able to do some sustain isn't comparable to a WAR soloing a boss down from 30% up to 80% health in a dungeon because the healer went down (and DPS typically follow at some point). DPS typically follow because, depending on party composition, many jobs have limited mitigation and healing that can't reasonably keep them alive aside from one offs or slightly long sequences. That's really how healing (on non healing classes) and mitigation (on non tank classes) should work .

- It isn't about healers being the god of the party. It's about keeping it so that jobs can only survive for a time without them VS being invulnerable. And let me break this down-- this has a practical function. If your party goes down in a dungeon and you are playing with even a decent WAR, they can proceed to waste 20+ mins soloing. That's a problem.

- Once again, as the expansion ages and difficulty goes down, players are increasingly more familiar with encounters and their roles, as well as auotmatically doing more dmaage with the equipment power creep. This is a problem if your particular job is one that is currently disrupting the trinity requirement.

- RE: " it's all expert players" No, it's really not. And even if it was, "it's only broken some of the time" does not change the fact it is broken.

[Jeeqbit]

I'm not sure if you're being serious with this part but...

I really am.

Because for most players, they NEED a proper healer and tank.

Really depends. I mean, even a casual player using a Warrior in level 90 dungeons just literally needs to press Shake It Off. And there. Party healed. That's it. They're probably going to kill the boss without a healer now. Almost all of Warrior's cooldowns heal themselves and more will in Dawntrail.

Also, if they play Paladin, their own rotation heals them directly for a lot and there are plenty of stories about underconfident Paladins using clemency to step on the toes of healers.

Can you imagine having the tank suddenly decide "Eh, I'm not feeling this, going to play DPS now"

Absolutely. There are definitely dungeons where you may as well just take 4 DPS along, and there are situations where doing this may be worthwhile if the party is full of veteran players. Which is why I brought up switching inside the dungeon. If there's a wipe, people can switch to make it work based on what is needed.

Go ahead and have the healer decide they're not going to heal and see what happens in 90% of roulettes.

Well I'll agree most players are underwhelming with this. Sometimes when I know I could solo a boss as a tank, I see a tank try to solo it and fail and I can't believe they didn't manage it when I would have. But again, this is why I brought up being able to switch job in roulettes. If the healer isn't good, one of the DPS can switch to one, etc. May as well if the trinity no longer matters. Why make jobs able to do eachother's job when you could just be allowed to switch?

[KisaiTenshi]

It's better than ever except for the 2 min meta and simplification of skills etc.

I don't want healers to be in full control of encounters ( Woops the healer died again? Whelp wipe I guess. Or the healer refuses to heal big packs? Well back to pull 1 by 1) like they use to be in HS/SB.

Healers should be supports rather than cure 1 bots + dot.

The Tank sets the pull size, the healer sets the pace. If the DPS decide to pull on their own , they get their face ripped off. When you are in a 4-player party, the DPS are there to kill the adds that spawn, then the boss, not to "Add" more to the fight.

Back in 2.0, before tanks dared double-pull, the healer even casting a heal before the pull would incite rage from the tank because every heal would rip enmity from the tank when not in tank stance. Casting Medica 2 or regen when it wasn't needed would rip all the enmity from all the enmies. This also worked as a trick in a few dungeons to kite ads. The healer could cast regen on anyone and then run around while the DPS fight the boss, and one of those situations where the tank could turn tank stance off for more DPS.

Emergent gameplay is fun, until it's no longer fun when it becomes a meta everyone is expected to follow.

The healer is firstly a healer, so having "more DPS" functionality is the wrong direction. And the developers clearly know this otherwise they wouldn't have deleted all the DoT's on all the healers. A healer should not be contributing any more than 5% of the DPS in a duty. If the DPS aren't doing 87.5% of the damage, then the DPS aren't doing their job. I'm not going to object to there being one more GCD DPS button, but what exactly are we expecting here? something that does more damage than the existing one? No. Assize on WHM already does more damage than Glare and Holy do. Any "DPS" the healer does, should be dealing a status effect that the enemy can cleanse and thus waste THEIR GCD. Most boss fights, even in FF1-6 are immune from status effects. Mostly because it would make it too easy if you could just cast Doom, and these status effects are usually things the white mage wouldn't be casting. If healers get an additional oGCD DPS, that means Assize 's potency gets cut in half.

Considering that all the traditional white magic spells have basically be folded into Esuna, and we have rarely a reason to use it, maybe the developers could just unwrap Esuna into "Esuna - removes damaging debuffs" and "Nul-stop - removes movement debuffs", where the former works on all versions of poisons, and the latter works on all binds/slow/stops except chains/gaol mechanics.

[Saraide]

Please heed what I stated half-way into my post.





it's not just healers, its all roles. If the trinity is solid in hard content, then by virtue it would be solid in all content, if said content was all made more difficult. Make sense? It isn't a healer-centric issue.

The difference is that without a tank or a dps your run gets significantly harder or takes a lot longer to complete. With a warrior and 3 dps your dungeon run will just straight up be better.

[Supersnow845]

It’s just a matter of no matter which way you look on healers they are a mess

-every role is functionally replaceable- doesn’t mean it’s fun being the only role that replacing you actually makes the run better
-okay well the DF system enforced healers so you won’t actually struggle to find a group- yeah so I get into the dungeon and basically get shadow replaced by the overpowered tank in instance
-it means you can contribute to the DPS- yay I can ignore 90% of my kit and the role I queued up for so I can play a gimped caster pressing 11111111211111111 while the tank is over there playing all three roles in one when I don’t even need the tank to be immortal to do this anyway
-then go play savage- yay now I can press 111111121111111 while watching my triage tools rot away because savage is body checks galore and if I’m really lucky I won’t get universally blamed for lack of mitigation despite having 3 of the party’s 20 mitigations

There is not a single facet of healer design that is not fu……..ed six ways from Sunday

[Somnolence]

However, Unlike the healerstrike thread, this one asserts the trinity is broken. When I am here to defend that it is not broken, it is that the majority of the game itself is too easy.

The fact that both tanks and healers are melding damage materia says it all.

[Hycinthus]

Hope someone can shed insight - if we compare to WoW, do healers in WoW have to heal more compared to FF? Do healers in WoW spend majority of time DPSing? Lets just take dungeons for example.

[Supersnow845]

Hope someone can shed insight - if we compare to WoW, do healers in WoW have to heal more compared to FF? Do healers in WoW spend majority of time DPSing? Lets just take dungeons for example.

Healers in WOW are about 40-60 DPS to healing at best 5-95 DPS to healing at hardest content

They overwhelmingly heal more than we do. They also have more complex DPS options