Final Fantasy XIV's Trinity System is Broken

[Rithy255]

Except tanks werent really the aggro managers, DPS and Healers were.


DPS still have damage synergy, what are you even talking about. Its why we are stuck with the 2 min meta. Damage synergy.

And that's why should have tried actual "aggro management" instead of designing jobs such as Ninja to do the work for you, If tanks actually ever had proper aggro management and the system still failed then sure they should go to current aggro design, but my issue with this sentiment is that it was barely tried in the first place.

Further more to add, I think they could have at least gave tanks more dps/rotation buttons but they've been reducing that ontop of removing core aspects about the job.

[Parona]

I've been mainly playing "other games" as so many in this forum loves to tell people to do. You actually feel like tanking in other MMOs. You are there soaking damage, parrying the boss, taunting the boss like a Chad, eating mechanics everyone else has to dodge for, defending your squishy party members to let them get uptime... There is none of that tank identity in FF14 anymore. Tanks right now feel more like healers than tanks.

Uhm, you still can stand in moat stuff that would kill a healer or a dps, you still need to soak damage and tank swap... Don't really know what game you were playing but it doesn't seem like it was FF14. You didn't even address what's one of the bigger issues with tanking in the last expansion: to not have much dignity about where the boss is moving, because he resets all the time and has a giant ass hit box (which they seem to scale back with the net expansion).

[HighlanderClone]

Uhm, you still can stand in moat stuff that would kill a healer or a dps, you still need to soak damage and tank swap... Don't really know what game you were playing but it doesn't seem like it was FF14. You didn't even address what's one of the bigger issues with tanking in the last expansion: to not have much dignity about where the boss is moving, because he resets all the time and has a giant ass hit box (which they seem to scale back with the net expansion).

Lol? Here's what I said: "Tanks got their aggro management and positioning removed"

And I don't think the pitifully little crumbs of aggro management left in the game counts as identity.

[Milkbeard]

If people believe that healers are unnecessary in ultimate content because of goofy records showing a couple of warriors doing UCOB, they obviously haven't experienced ultimate content. Healers are essential. It can be amusing when, on occasion, eight exceptionally skilled players pull off some trickrun-level antics for evergreen content that's been around for years. However, if you take those runs as the rule or the meta, you're mistaken.

For expert roulettes and some trials, it's true that healers might not be strictly necessary. But in those cases, neither are tanks or DPS. It might seem like DPS are crucial, but the checks can often be completed with just two players. We've all been in roulettes where this has happened at least once, and a DPS can tank nearly any buster if properly mitigated in that content as well. Classes are designed to cover for each other because the game itself is easy unless you're tackling hard content.

Once you engage in hard content, you'll realize that no mechanic can be survived with just DPS group mitigation. Every mechanic has a mitigation threshold, and none are balanced for just Addle and Feint being sufficient. Reprisals and healer mitigation are also always necessary. If you have a problem with tanks mitigating mechanics for your group, that is just unreasonable. Removing tank group mitigation would merely make them weaker DPS. Strive for more, not less. Removals should not be an option.

simple solution, make content harder > role becomes more necessary. Don't get bent out of shape over the trinity trend and enjoy the fact that it is innovating.

You wanted more from the expansion spell previews, not for them to remove things. Be creative, not deconstructive.

[Reimmi]

If people believe that healers are unnecessary in ultimate content because of goofy records showing a couple of warriors doing UCOB, they obviously haven't experienced ultimate content. Healers are essential. It can be amusing when, on occasion, eight exceptionally skilled players pull off some trickrun-level antics for evergreen content that's been around for years. However, if you take those runs as the rule or the meta, you're mistaken.

For expert roulettes and some trials, it's true that healers might not be strictly necessary. But in those cases, neither are tanks or DPS. It might seem like DPS are crucial, but the checks can often be completed with just two players. We've all been in roulettes where this has happened at least once, and a DPS can tank nearly any buster if properly mitigated in that content as well. Classes are designed to cover for each other because the game itself is easy unless you're tackling hard content.

Once you engage in hard content, you'll realize that no mechanic can be survived with just DPS group mitigation. Every mechanic has a mitigation threshold, and none are balanced for just Addle and Feint being sufficient. Reprisals and healer mitigation are also always necessary. If you have a problem with tanks mitigating mechanics for your group, that is just unreasonable. Removing tank group mitigation would merely make them weaker DPS. Strive for more, not less. Removals should not be an option.

simple solution, make content harder > role becomes more necessary. Don't get bent out of shape over the trinity trend and enjoy the fact that it is innovating.

You wanted more from the expansion spell previews, not for them to remove things. Be creative, not deconstructive.

Healers only being required in the absolute hardest content is still a failure of the trinity system.
If dungeon finder let you not have a healer, a surprising amount would choose not to bring one.

[Milkbeard]

Healers only being required in the absolute hardest content is still a failure of the trinity system.
If dungeon finder let you not have a healer, a surprising amount would choose not to bring one.

Please heed what I stated half-way into my post.

For expert roulettes and some trials, it's true that healers might not be strictly necessary. But in those cases, neither are tanks or DPS. It might seem like DPS are crucial, but the checks can often be completed with just two players. We've all been in roulettes where this has happened at least once, and a DPS can tank nearly any buster if properly mitigated in that content as well. Classes are designed to cover for each other because the game itself is easy unless you're tackling hard content.

[/B]

it's not just healers, its all roles. If the trinity is solid in hard content, then by virtue it would be solid in all content, if said content was all made more difficult. Make sense? It isn't a healer-centric issue.

[Reimmi]

Please heed what I stated half-way into my post.





it's not just healers, its all roles. If the trinity is solid in hard content, then by virtue it would be solid in all content, if said content was all made more difficult. Make sense? It isn't a healer-centric issue.

Bro in every mmo dungeons can be done without dps. Speed is all that matters and why dps are brought lol
tanks are brought because they allow you to pull the entire dungeon for the dps to aoe (warriors and paladins don't need a healer to do this either, thus the OP's post)

There's no incentive to bring a healer to roulettes beyond "you have to"

[Milkbeard]

I want content to require so much healing that only healers can heal it. I agree UCOB isn't a good example because it was power crept by that point, and it's probably saying more about the DPS checks than heal checks since it was run by tanks. But we've seen hard content get cleared during the patch it was released in as well.


DPS and tanks are also not designed to spam 1. Healers are told that their primary job is to heal, therefore they get no DPS complexity. Then we get told that the content is easy, so obviously it doesn't need healing. It doesn't add up.


This is exactly what the no-healer TOP clear shows us. In the hardest content, even on patch, tanks and DPS can coordinate their tools to mitigate and heal the damage. That should not be possible in a functioning trinity.

You neglected to mention that you agreed with a lot of my claims lol. We are seeing eye to eye on most what I've said.

However, Unlike the healerstrike thread, this one asserts the trinity is broken. When I am here to defend that it is not broken, it is that the majority of the game itself is too easy.

Do not get me wrong. I sincerely believe that healers should have more spells, for dps too. We should all advocate for that.

A no-healer clear is not the meta. If you see an ultimate cleared in a trick-run format, then I beg you to seek an understanding for how its' do-able rather than taking it at face value and telling the world its just because healers aren't necessary. UCOB can be done because it has a large amount of down-time, a slow enrage timer for certain phases and many more reason- and no matter what they change, it will always have those exploitable areas unless the fight itself is frankly nerfed. Does that mean the whole games Trinity is off? No!! It means cracked players successfully broke a difficult fight down so efficiently into its' core elements that they could pull off something epic. Outlier clears aren't true fuel for the fire, because when you have a game that people are passionate about for years there will always be outlier events like this. It isn't Meta, it's a feat of passion and we should respect it. None of them cleared that content without having first extensively cleared it with the complete trinity group numerous times.

Bro in every mmo dungeons can be done without dps. Speed is all that matters and why dps are brought lol
tanks are brought because they allow you to pull the entire dungeon for the dps to aoe (warriors and paladins don't need a healer to do this either, thus the OP's post)

There's no incentive to bring a healer to roulettes beyond "you have to"

Understood, however, I offered a solution where as you are stating the whole framework is broken because of it. If the game were simply made more difficult then healers would be more necessary.

[Reimmi]

You neglected to mention that you agreed with a lot of my claims lol. We are seeing eye to eye on most what I've said.

However, Unlike the healerstrike thread, this one asserts the trinity is broken. When I am here to defend that it is not broken, it is that the majority of the game itself is too easy.

Do not get me wrong. I sincerely believe that healers should have more spells, for dps too. We should all advocate for that.

A no-healer clear is not the meta. If you see an ultimate cleared in a trick-run format, then I beg you to seek an understanding for how its' do-able rather than taking it at face value and telling the world its just because healers aren't necessary. UCOB can be done because it has a large amount of down-time, a slow enrage timer for certain phases and many more reason- and no matter what they change, it will always have those exploitable areas unless the fight itself is frankly nerfed. Does that mean the whole games Trinity is off? No!! It means cracked players successfully broke a difficult fight down so efficiently into its' core elements that they could pull off something epic. Outlier clears aren't true fuel for the fire, because when you have a game that people are passionate about for years there will always be outlier events like this. It isn't Meta, it's a feat of passion and we should respect it. None of them cleared that content without having first extensively cleared it with the complete trinity group numerous times.







Understood, however, I offered a solution where as you are stating the whole framework is broken because of it. If the game were simply made more difficult then healers would be more necessary.

I absolutely agree that making the game more difficult would make things better for healers. More fun for everyone too i think

yoshi did say he found roulettes boring so maybe something will be done about that