SMN Rework/Update Pitch

[SeverianLyonesse]

Eh for several reasons I still do not think adding the other three summons will actually improve the job, aesthetically or mechanically. I think, for at least as long as we have strict 2-minute rotations, it has all the summons it needs to feel like it has a base kit and some extra powerful spells; anything more would actually dilute the "summoner" feel imo (Solar Bahamut is already kind of doing this), as none of the base kit summons would be around long enough to feel consequential. Any notions of introducing the concept of "choice" like how SMN has been represented in every FF game prior, is just ignoring the reality that FFXIV is not designed to accommodate a traditional iteration of SMN.

THAT said, the obvious and elegant solution is just to implement glamours. That would provide plenty of player choice without affecting the job design.

[rawker]

Eh for several reasons I still do not think adding the other three summons will actually improve the job, aesthetically or mechanically.

This is correct. The core problem with modern SMN is that there is no variation or deviation to it. I mean, there has been a video proving that the entire current SMN kit can be condensed to a single button. And it is, i kid you not, able to do its rotation. If this doesn't look broken, i don't know what is.

Even if they implement every iconic summon monster in the franchise, for as long as it will make use of the current system, it will never be able to change how boring, uninspired, and unrewarding the job is. The only fix to this is to re-introduce the situational needs/opportunity costs to the job... let it have other things to monitor.. i dunno.. like a pet, like they used to.

[Eudyptes]

Eh for several reasons I still do not think adding the other three summons will actually improve the job, aesthetically or mechanically.

This is correct.

(Snipped down both quotes for character limitations.)

So I get what you two are saying, and it's not entirely wrong, but it needs to be both. Whether people like to admit it or not, aesthetics and class identity are a major aspect of the game, and the latter specifically has been missing from SMN since it's addition. DoT mages are fine as their own thing, but it wasn't a "Final Fantasy Summoner", and the changes the last couple xpacs have been taking steps to making it resemble what it should look like within the games current set parameters for classes. Adding the other three summons will give the class a virtually complete/rounded out identity, and from there you start talking about mechanics and how to make it work in a fun and exciting way. Personally I have some ideas like removing Phoenix and Bahamut from the core rotation, and filling their spots with Fenrir and Carbuncle, then moving Bahamut and Phoenix to a more "major summon" position that you earn via job gauge. And then you can add Alex, Odin, etc to that "major summon" list in future xpacs.

That said though, keep in mind that for the most part no dps really has much variance. SMN might be the worst case scenario when you dissect them all, but all dps have a pretty strict dps rotation that you aren't going to change up if your goal is to do the most dps. It's a problem that has been bothering me more and more as time goes on because classes are starting to feel too samey and frankly it's getting boring. But it's not uniquely a SMN problem by any means. My hope is that if we are sacrificing class overhauls in 7.0 in favor of new boss mechanics, etc, that in 8.0 it becomes the inverse and they hard focus on changing up how classes are played in a major way. Giving them all their unique class identity faithful to the series while also just making them more interesting to play. It's just unfortunate that that'll be at least two years out at this point regardless.

[AlphaXXI]

(Snipped down both quotes for character limitations.)

So I get what you two are saying, and it's not entirely wrong, but it needs to be both. Whether people like to admit it or not, aesthetics and class identity are a major aspect of the game, and the latter specifically has been missing from SMN since it's addition. DoT mages are fine as their own thing, but it wasn't a "Final Fantasy Summoner", and the changes the last couple xpacs have been taking steps to making it resemble what it should look like within the games current set parameters for classes. Adding the other three summons will give the class a virtually complete/rounded out identity, and from there you start talking about mechanics and how to make it work in a fun and exciting way. Personally I have some ideas like removing Phoenix and Bahamut from the core rotation, and filling their spots with Fenrir and Carbuncle, then moving Bahamut and Phoenix to a more "major summon" position that you earn via job gauge. And then you can add Alex, Odin, etc to that "major summon" list in future xpacs.

I really don't think we can expect there to be so many summons (including Carbucle, those you mentionned add up to 12) unless you completely rework the job again. If all summons change the actions the summoner can use, each with their own unique animations for flair, that need to be adjusted for every race and gender, the amount of work that requires is enormous and it would also be near impossible to balance. Only way this would work is if the player and the summon's actions were completely independent again, or if they massively reused animation, or if all the "big summons" you mention were essentially the same except visually, and that's already an issue with solar bahamut.

It's all really a matter of choosing between more summons or having the ones we currently have do more. And honestly, as much of a fanboy for many summons as I am, it's pretty rounded to have a triad already (think pokémon starters), so adding complexity through those seems more likely to me. I could see other elemental summons being added, up to three, or new upgrades, but we need to have realistic expectations and strive for a balance between cool factor, workload and gameplay.

[Eudyptes]

I really don't think we can expect there to be so many summons (including Carbucle, those you mentionned add up to 12) unless you completely rework the job again.

My suggestion at the end with adding Fenrir/Carby + "big summons" would absolutely require a rework, but that is simply the direction I'd like to see them take the class if I had it my way, and not something I would ever actually expect to happen. However, the other three primals would not require a full rework. You're simply replacing round two of Ifrit/Garuda/Titan with them in the same sense Phoenix already replaces Bahamut, and the class would otherwise flow exactly the same for better or worse. Would it largely feel like they are just doing what Ifrit/Garuda/Titan are already doing right now? Honestly, probably, but that's really just the way the game is rn. Having different summons come in doing largely the same, but slightly different things is pretty much like how SAM has 2 diff "1,2,3" combos + a "1,2" just to get different stickers. Or BLM switching from Fire IV to Blizzard IV then back again.

Would it take a lot of time and development to implement? Yeah, just as much as they put in for Endwalker when they added the first three, but honestly my sympathy for that work is a bit low atm since this is all stuff that should have been slowly implemented 10+ years ago. The reality is they waited a long time to course correct this class, and now that they clearly are trying to there is a lot of catching up to do.

I get the arguments that some want the current ones to be fleshed out, and that is something they should do eventually, but thematically having 3 elements + 3 random finishers is not rounded out. Pokemon starters work because they make a "rock, paper, scissors" triangle, but FF has their own established 6 sided version in the elemental wheel, which only half is represented right now. In hindsight they should have started with 3, added the other 3, then worked their way up to Bahamut/Phoenix/etc, but that's not what they did. So it kinda feels like a mess atm.

That said, with the exception of Solar Bahamut feeling like a bit of a set back, I feel like SE has been making great strides in making SMN thematically how it should be within FFXIV. So I def want to give them credit there. I'm hoping that in 8.0 and beyond the class gets fully realized.