[DT Benchmark] Specific Feedback re: Mouth/Lip Color Updated Shapes

[Kanehon]

I really don't think the underlying mouth shape actually changed for anyone. It's a really subtle thing but it demonstrates just how much tiny changes in lip makeup application can affect someone's appearance.

Of course it's also a strong argument for implementing more customization options for lip makeup, not just for shape but also gloss and "metallicity" (like in Baldur's Gate 3) but that's getting ahead of ourselves

Here's that F Au Ra again without makeup to demonstrate. I believe the most prominent difference is that there used to be some shading on the upper lip to give the appearance of folds; that's gone now. But that was a texture trick, not an actual difference in shape.

it might be purely a texture change, indeed, but that does not mean that the Apparent shape that we perceive was not altered in the process. Besides the middle shading, the corner of the upper lips was given the appearance of being made smaller. Even if the underlying model remained the same, which we cannot tell unless we are comparing a raw 3D model and its polygons, what it Looks like is what impact us.

On a unrelated note, but the scales on the chest, almost out of view of that picture, are a lot Thinner in width too.

[Caesius]

The lips have all been extended to the very corners of the mouth. Which is something that does not always happen, not to mention it changes the expression of the face.

Yup, the lower lip especially now seems to always be a corner-to-corner arch of uniform curvature that extends to the very bottom edge of the lip. Additionally, getting rid of upper lip fold textures on F Au Ra and M Viera made their lips appear much more smooth and flat than before, removing the :3 expression. That fold was even prominent enough on F Au Ra for you to trace it out.

Again, though, it's the same underlying lip geometry! They can make everyone happy if they just give us MORE OPTIONS

[Caesius]

So, I don't know what'd need to happen for the dev team to see this, but between the screenshots and diagrams on the first page I think there's enough proof of a specific, widespread issue that in many cases result in a change to a WoL's appearance that players wouldn't want. The problem is that it's so subtle that most players probably wouldn't spot it and just complain that it "looks off."

The catch-all complaint is that lip makeup all looks the same now -- it lacks the per-race "personality" that it used to have. But there's many individual instances where a WoL's appearance changes wildly, e.g. F Au Ra face 4.

Probably the only way for this to be seen though is to go viral on JP Twitter. I have no SM presence and I think the most effect I've ever had on game development was when I very rudely complained that the cockpit view in the Dodge Challenger made me feel like a grandma in Forza 5.

Anyway, feel free to signal boost by reposting the screenshots and diagrams, or even posting side-by-side comparisons of your own WoL.

[Kathryn]

Unpopular opinion but I like the new lip textures :< I#d be upset if they reverted it.

[Caesius]

Do you mean the gloss and actual texture/"look and feel" or are you talking about the shape as well?

I'm not suggesting reverting the lip gloss/textures but just providing an option to have it look closer to the original shape (though I do think in some cases a touch-up is urgently needed). See the series of outlines on the previous page.

[azaleai]

e.g. whether it precisely covers the lip geometry or if it deviates by covering less or more.

Already posted this in the updated benchmark thread but it fits into the discussion here too:



Femroe face 2's (the same one you use in your screenshot) lip textures don't even line up. The normal map (the faux geometry, essentially) has the upper lip almost a completely straight line with a... bizarrely stiff and straight philtrum, while the diffuse map (the colour texture) has a very exaggerated cupid's bow. I know the colour of a person's lips don't always reach the edge of the physical lip, but it certainly doesn't tend to extend beyond it!

Now I don't use lipstick on any of my characters (I think I hated the way it was obnoxiously shiny, so maybe it's something I should look into with the new graphics), but bare-lipped I really miss how the lip colour faded naturally into the skintone on the bottom lip and towards the corners of the mouth - that felt a lot more natural to me. It also appears (at least on my skintone) that they've altered the colour of the lips... We all know the texture has been changed to make them more glossy than the skin as well as defined creases being added, but all of that combined with the more uniform colour and the more defined edge makes it look like I've got lipstick on when I don't. P: I genuinely went back and checked my character data multiple times for lipstick because it looked so... lipstick-y.

Putting the lipstick so far into the corners of the mouth strikes me as a very bizarre decision, particularly on fem highlanders. I certainly wouldn't put my lipstick that far irl. For the most part they just look like that awful overdrawn style that was a thing a few years back which, as you said, vastly changes the lip shape for most of the faces.

[Caesius]

I did always tend to notice that femroe face 2 had lipstick around the corners of the mouth, which looked kinda weird, but there was still an interesting, defined shape to it, at least compared to the new lipstick.

But now that you mention it, I think the impression I got that the lipstick extends beyond the points of the cupid's bow is wrong. Rather it's the opposite; it doesn't even reach the points which is why there's a slight color change right at the tips.

I'm kinda wondering if they made the new lipstick in a single universal shape and then stretched it to fit to the mouth corners and the central edges of the lips.

[Cheapshot]

I really don't think the underlying mouth shape actually changed for anyone.

They did. At least mine did. A lot.
F Moon Miqo'te, face 4



They really flattened everything and closed her lip part to hide the lip gap for no reason. I very much dislike these changes. They gave the same treatment to her nose and eyes too. Made her nose straighter and thinner with smaller nostrils. Made her eyes more rounded and soft. It really feels like they did a cosmetic surgery pass and I don't know why they decided to do this. I loved my characters features just how they were.

[noumen0nn]

And the lips (type 4). I don't even know what to say. The way the lipstick is drawn has changed completely, making the lips seem like a drastically different shape; she looks like her lips are permanently pursed. Her philtrum is much thinner, and her cupid's bow is an entirely different shape, even without the lipstick.

I know the devs worked hard improving the benchmark, but I cannot find it in my heart to thank them right now. I can't stand looking at my WoL in the benchmark, and I'm dreading the release of Dawntrail when I should be getting excited for it.

You can see pretty clearly in my image that the shape of the actual lips themselves has changed, but regardless I think you are right and the lipstick is a MUCH bigger issue. Hyur midlander F face 1 in particular looks like they're sucking in their lips or doing a duckface.

[posona]

I think the rounded lower lip is more a result of lighting/shading on most faces, but I can attest that face 3 M Miqo has a different mouth shape all around.



Above current game, below DT.

This is mouth 4, which as one can see already had significant shading beneath the lower lip, however the lower lip is thinner now. The upper lip has gotten slightly longer and the space between the Cupid’s bow is smaller. This detracts from the sort of puckered, cat-like shape of the mouth that I loved. I understand smoothing the sharp points of the upper lip, but the whole shape changing I really hate.