[DT Benchmark] Specific Feedback re: Mouth/Lip Color Updated Shapes

[Caesius]

(scroll down for screenshots if you don't want an essay)

Before I describe the issue, I'd like to suggest a solution:

I propose implementing a new customization option for Lip Color Shape.

Where applicable, one of the new options for Lip Color Shape would be close to how lip color appeared in 6.58.

By "lip color shape" I mean the specific application of lipstick/gloss/tint to the lips, e.g. whether it precisely covers the lip geometry or if it deviates by covering less or more. See screenshots for what I mean.

Why?

Many races/faces/mouths have a substantially different appearance in DT when lip color is used due to adjustments in how lip color is applied. This very minor change nonetheless leads to an "uncanny" appearance change for some WoLs that we've had for years.

Changing lip color shape would also be accessible from the aesthetician and so not require a fantasia use. It also wouldn't require devs to make any changes to the 3D models.

This change would allow for new ways to apply lip color that haven't been possible before and enable players to go further in customizing their WoLs. For example, a lip color shape option could allow applying lip color to only the top or bottom lip.

Shouldn't they just adjust lips to all look how they used to?

No, I specifically am not suggesting that the dev team attempt to adjust the existing single shape for lip color, much less actual mouth geometry, since such a feature obviously can't be implemented for quite some time and we'll all be used to these updates by then.

That said, I think there are some individual instances where lip makeup application is so different that changing it ASAP may be for the better.

[Caesius]

Screenshots

DT is on the left, 6.58 on the right. I tested most race+gender combos except lala and hroth. Most race+gender combos except M Roe had at least one face whose lip color shape seemed to change substantially.

I mostly tried to use pale skin and dark black lip color.

Viera



For both male and female Viera, the lower lip appears to be rounded out. For F this results in a plumper lower lip and a wider apparent angle at the corner of the mouth. For M this makes their mouths appear substantially more effeminate.

Miqote



The rounded lower lip appears on Miqote as well, though it's more noticeable on the M. For F she used to have something of a smirk or :3 face; now she just looks pissed/serious.

Elezen



F has the rounded out lower lip that I'm seeing a lot, in addition to a very thinned upper lip. M's seems to cover the entire lip up to the corners rather than stop short.

Highlander



I quite like the changes to F, though again there's a rounded out lower lip. M's has been smoothed out and the lower lip fattened.

Au Ra



M was the only one where I had to use dark skin and light lip color; pale+black was almost invisible... Anyway, again, rounded bottom, and the top outlines the cupid's bow a lot more. For F, her bottom lip appears much fatter and she looks like she's "puckering up" -- I think what happened was in 6.58 the lip color application didn't reach all the way to the "fold" of the lower lip, while in DT it does.

Midlander



Both once again have a rounded lower lip, and both also have thinner upper lip color.

Femroe


THIS is why I made this thread! Just look at my girl!

It's actually more obvious at an oblique angle but she looks older now (or "more mature" you could say). The lower lip is significantly rounded off. The upper lip seems to have a sharper cupid's bow -- some of the color seems to extend beyond the fold at the points. I wouldn't mind this as an option but I'd like the old shape back.

[Kanehon]

I'll say that while I'm not sure if simply changing where the lipstick applies on the face would help with it, but what I like the most about your screenshots is how very good they are at showing how there was quite the change in lip shape for everyone.

It's very clear all the shapes changed significantly and altered the expression. Female Miqo'te as you pointed out is a very big example in how her expression changed entirely. But F Au Ra clearly have the lower lips a lot more full, and many other instances of the shape having been altered.

Male Au Ra gives the most clear example of the low resolution of the texture, but it also shows they had no cupid's bow, while the updated was given one.

As a side note, it also is a good example of what people mean by how the Black Hair now looks grey...

[Sotaris]

Screenshots

DT is on the left, 6.58 on the right. I tested most race+gender combos except lala and hroth. Most race+gender combos except M Roe had at least one face whose lip color shape seemed to change substantially.

I mostly tried to use pale skin and dark black lip color.

Viera



For both male and female Viera, the lower lip appears to be rounded out. For F this results in a plumper lower lip and a wider apparent angle at the corner of the mouth. For M this makes their mouths appear substantially more effeminate.

Miqote



The rounded lower lip appears on Miqote as well, though it's more noticeable on the M. For F she used to have something of a smirk or :3 face; now she just looks pissed/serious.

Elezen



F has the rounded out lower lip that I'm seeing a lot, in addition to a very thinned upper lip. M's seems to cover the entire lip up to the corners rather than stop short.

Highlander



I quite like the changes to F, though again there's a rounded out lower lip. M's has been smoothed out and the lower lip fattened.

Au Ra



M was the only one where I had to use dark skin and light lip color; pale+black was almost invisible... Anyway, again, rounded bottom, and the top outlines the cupid's bow a lot more. For F, her bottom lip appears much fatter and she looks like she's "puckering up" -- I think what happened was in 6.58 the lip color application didn't reach all the way to the "fold" of the lower lip, while in DT it does.

Midlander



Both once again have a rounded lower lip, and both also have thinner upper lip color.

Femroe


THIS is why I made this thread! Just look at my girl!

It's actually more obvious at an oblique angle but she looks older now (or "more mature" you could say). The lower lip is significantly rounded off. The upper lip seems to have a sharper cupid's bow -- some of the color seems to extend beyond the fold at the points. I wouldn't mind this as an option but I'd like the old shape back.

No lalafel??!

[Caesius]

I really don't think the underlying mouth shape actually changed for anyone. It's a really subtle thing but it demonstrates just how much tiny changes in lip makeup application can affect someone's appearance.

Of course it's also a strong argument for implementing more customization options for lip makeup, not just for shape but also gloss and "metallicity" (like in Baldur's Gate 3) but that's getting ahead of ourselves

Here's that F Au Ra again without makeup to demonstrate. I believe the most prominent difference is that there used to be some shading on the upper lip to give the appearance of folds; that's gone now. But that was a texture trick, not an actual difference in shape.

[Caesius]

No lalafel??!

lala mouths are SO SMALL that I had trouble describing what actually changed

But here they are anyway, in all their tuber-y goodness

[Kanehon]

I hope you don't mind, Caesius, but I went through your pictures and outlined the shape in both comparisons, in hopes that it will show clearer what the issue is.

And I also want to say in advance, it's very, very clear how much the textures improved, and the details do look incredible. It's clear the Dev team is putting a lot of work into this, and this comment is not meant to undermine that. But to help address why people still feel like something is "Off" and different about their characters.

Lips give a lot of personality to the face, and their shapes have clearly been altered and modified.

I apologize in advance that this got large.



Now, I've been noticing two main things in how the lips where changed:
The lips have all been extended to the very corners of the mouth. Which is something that does not always happen, not to mention it changes the expression of the face.

The most clear examples are Male Viera, Miqo'te, and Elezen, but that is noticeable on most faces.
Here, with the outline on the picture itself, you can see how the lips now extend to the very corner of the mouth, altering the original shape.


Though that is far from the only issue. Some cases the lip shape was altered almost completely.
The Female Au Ra is an example of how the lip is now much more Full, rounded, and heart shaped.



Honestly, looking through all of them, what saddens me the most is how the shapes have become generic, and uninteresting. They have lost almost all, if not all, of their uniqueness, and personality. Especially in the Female Models, they look very generic, doll-like, and standardized, though the same is true across all faces.

It does feel a bit like they got a little "Over-Zealous" rounding out the shapes, and in turn, losing much of their uniqueness.

I do hope this helps showcase the issue people are having and how the shape itself has been altered, and why people are upset over it.

[Kanehon]

lala mouths are SO SMALL that I had trouble describing what actually changed

But here they are anyway, in all their tuber-y goodness

I saw this afterwards, but made a similar comparison with the power of extreme zoom-in:


What I noticed is the upper lip was significantly made smaller, and the lower lip a little larger.
Which, unfortunately, makes it look like a tiny version of th exact same lip everyone else has, and furthers my impression that the lips were homogenized and made generic-looking.

[programcanaan]

I hope you don't mind, Caesius, but I went through your pictures and outlined the shape in both comparisons, in hopes that it will show clearer what the issue is.

And I also want to say in advance, it's very, very clear how much the textures improved, and the details do look incredible. It's clear the Dev team is putting a lot of work into this, and this comment is not meant to undermine that. But to help address why people still feel like something is "Off" and different about their characters.

Lips give a lot of personality to the face, and their shapes have clearly been altered and modified.

I apologize in advance that this got large.



Now, I've been noticing two main things in how the lips where changed:
The lips have all been extended to the very corners of the mouth. Which is something that does not always happen, not to mention it changes the expression of the face.

The most clear examples are Male Viera, Miqo'te, and Elezen, but that is noticeable on most faces.
Here, with the outline on the picture itself, you can see how the lips now extend to the very corner of the mouth, altering the original shape.


Though that is far from the only issue. Some cases the lip shape was altered almost completely.
The Female Au Ra is an example of how the lip is now much more Full, rounded, and heart shaped.



Honestly, looking through all of them, what saddens me the most is how the shapes have become generic, and uninteresting. They have lost almost all, if not all, of their uniqueness, and personality. Especially in the Female Models, they look very generic, doll-like, and standardized, though the same is true across all faces.

It does feel a bit like they got a little "Over-Zealous" rounding out the shapes, and in turn, losing much of their uniqueness.

I do hope this helps showcase the issue people are having and how the shape itself has been altered, and why people are upset over it.

Dawntrail label looks like a D + which sounds about right XD

[Kanehon]

Dawntrail label looks like a D + which sounds about right XD

My handwritting is bad, but it was faster than making Proper Text lmao