Please let summoner keep raise

[Ramiee]

Yet again, blue mage already solved a problem in the normal game.
Res tax = everyone can Res it's just a long ass CD so you won't be able to mass res.
Healers get a damage rotation and a healing rotation.
Aggro management is a thing.

[Eloah]

Keep the rez, adjust the heal. It's stupid that it doesn't scale with intelligence. And this is going on how many years? And the sad thing is SMN got a "new heal" but it's not even viable to use, since it's on a timer.

[remiff]

The best changes that the devs could make to address several balance issues among casters,
because the current state of casters is downright bad, would be to give an instant role action resurrection with a 5-minute cooldown to all caster.

They could allow Red Mage to keep its chain rez ability as it’s part of the job, and Summoner could recover its resurrection faster when using Phoenix, for example, resetting the cooldown to 0.
Why give it to everyone?
Let me explain.

First, this would make all casters reliable during progression phases.
Second, they could reduce the DPS disparity between the so-called "pure" and "support" categories because currently, the difference is around 10%,
which is just huge—especially considering that the Pictomancer has quite a few support options, so that category essentially doesn't exist.

If they really want to emphasize the support aspect, they need to add real support spells and not just a raid buff that increases RDPS because, as of today, almost every job has one, even those with relatively high DPS.

Instead, they should add more synergy, like in the Stormblood era—for example, options to give a portion of your mana to a healer, an effect that allows the group to move faster for x seconds,
or an effect that lets melee DPS ignore positionals and attack from a further distance for x seconds.

In short, they can innovate to strengthen the so-called support jobs, because currently, most so-called support jobs only boost RDPS, but many jobs, even the most powerful ones, sometimes have that effect.
Meanwhile, others, like Machinist, who don’t have anything, have strangely low DPS.

So, if they want to recategorize support casters, they need to completely rework them, and the same goes for physical ranged DPS.


And if they make the mistake of removing the resurrection ability from Summoner and slightly increasing its DPS, they won’t solve the problem because it would push three casters out of the progression phase.
Red Mage would become the only "Prog Mage," and since resurrection is a powerful ability, it would suffer a 10% damage penalty because, for some unknown reason,
the devs believe that resurrection alone justifies such a significant DPS difference between jobs in the same role.


There are currently three major inconsistencies disrupting the balance among casters.
The first is resurrection, the second is Summoner, which has 99.9% mobility and doesn’t seem to fit within the caster category,
and the third is the colossal difference in firepower between the pure damage and resurrection categories.

[Wolf_Necros]

Please keep it healers are useless I would prefer to help people then rely on narcissist to do the job if a dps upsets them.

[Lyth]

...

Having raise as a role action that gets modified by job-specific traits is an interesting idea. If I recall historically, the main objection was that raise doesn't really fit with the traditional Black Magic spell list, as far as the series is concerned.

I think the workaround to this is to implement a neutral role action, like a Phoenix Down action with a set recast (or perhaps add additional recast time based off of how many times the action was used by the party.) If equal access to raise is available in every raid comp, then you don't have to penalise players from bringing them.

Support actions that help a teammate gain additional DPS is an interesting concept. The range extension was one that I hadn't considered. Raidwide movement tools are another. I think if you have more unique variants of support actions, you're again less likely to have a specific 'support category' that is underpowered at DPS.

[Carighan]

I think the workaround to this is to implement a neutral role action, like a Phoenix Down action with a set recast (or perhaps add additional recast time based off of how many times the action was used by the party.) If equal access to raise is available in every raid comp, then you don't have to penalise players from bringing them.

Oh that'd be interesting in general. But for Phoenix Down in particular:

* Summoner has an instant case "Phoenix Flame" version that also puts a buff on the raised person that will make them unable to die the next time they would do so within 30 seconds, while also continuously healing them for a lot of health during this time. It recharges only every 2 minutes, when Phoenix is summoned (this assumed the absolutely inane current Solar Bahamut stuff is resolved first, but that needs to be done anyways so let's assume Bahamut and Phoenix cycle properly again), this recharge skill in fact replaces the current healing buff of Phoenix.
* Pictomancers have to paint a Phoenix Down (slow cast) then use it (instant, short range). Can freely by used, but triggers or refreshes the CD on Starry Muse if used, so it's for absolutely emergencies (as the job has no rezz right now, I figured it needs a lot of restrictions).
* Black Mage can cast a 240s CD 10000 mana costing 2,5s casting rezz extended-range (50-60, you never have to move for it) but it only lights up after Fire III. Meaning you'd "abort" your fire phase right after starting it to do this. Same as above, no rezz right now, so lots of restrictions.
* Red Mage basically keeps what it has right now, as it's the unique sales pitch of the job.

[Connor]

Where is this obsession with adding massive limitations or huge cool-downs to Raise abilities coming from? All that does is make the game way more difficult for casuals who will literally have no way to recover from a mistake anymore. Which, given FFXIV’s ‘so easy your dog can play’ design, feels unnecessary. Like, look at all the posts about ‘bad healers’: are we seriously going to trust them and them alone with whether or not the party succeeds?

I mean it’s not like removing Raise is going to make Summoner/Red Mage dps suddenly skyrocket. It’d stay the exact same because the raise only half the reason they’re at the bottom . The other reason is the fact they’re both strongly considered two of the easiest jobs in the game, Summoner especially. Unless they fundamentally change how the job’s entire rotation works to be more complex and convoluted it’s going to be sitting at the bottom of the dps pile anyway with or without Raise.

As for Black Mage, that has its own problems, but I highly doubt anyone in their right mind is going to reject a (properly balanced) Black Mage because ‘we might need Raise so we’ll just take the de-facto weakest dps in the game instead’?

Why do people complain about homogenisation then constantly come to the forums demanding job homogenisation lol? Is it really the end of the world is certain jobs are good at certain things? What difference does it make if Black Mage can’t Raise assuming it’s dps is balanced at a proportionate level? Current job design is a direct result of them constantly removing those things, so I’d prefer if they like, stopped, lol.

[Carighan]

Why do people complain about homogenisation then constantly come to the forums demanding job homogenisation lol? Is it really the end of the world is certain jobs are good at certain things? What difference does it make if Black Mage can’t Raise assuming it’s dps is balanced at a proportionate level? Current job design is a direct result of them constantly removing those things, so I’d prefer if they like, stopped, lol.

That wasn't my intention at all tbh, as given by the examples above I enjoy the thought of highly unique and restricted different approaches to the same problem.

Now, should all casters be able to rezz in whatever capacity in the first place? No clue, but seeing how spammable rezzes are anyways it hardly matters if we add more of them. FFXIV as a game did decide to make unlimited in-combat rezzing a thing. But whether this means it's okay for an entire (non-healer) role to have rezzes, that's not something I'd want to look at in the context, that's a separate problem altogether.

But once that's accepted, I like it when each approach is wildly different. And now of course you could say "But why not give everyone a spammable rezz, that's just going to make people fail to do it", by that token we could give everyone tank EHP too, because DPS jobs would otherwise fail at surviving raid bosses attacking them. That's not a good slippery slope to step onto!

[Connor]

snip for characters

Having abilities like Raise with heavy restrictions seems counter to the point of the ability to me personally.

Like, take Warden’s Paean. Esuna on a 45s cool-down. The requirement for Esuna is so rare, and even then when it does become an emergency and someone actually needs it, you have to pray to god nobody else gets another debuff or you’re completely out of luck (assuming healer has somehow inexplicably vanished from existence lol). As a result, most people just completely ignore to the point that I genuinely believe at least 70% of Bards literally do not that the ability even exists.

If you ask me though, all they need to do is made it a GCD, with or without Mp cost or cast or w/e. Then it can actually be used in an emergency to support when necessary; otherwise it’s functionally redundant. Removable debuffs are either such an emergency you need to get them immediately, or so unthreatening they might as well not exist (healers adjust lol).

Raise is the exact same to me. Either it’s needed in an emergency or it’s not really necessary (healer can do it, enemy at 1% HP, w/e). I feel like adding restrictions to it like a cool-down just defeat the purpose of it being there in the first place. I mean, I hate that Lux Solaris is tied to Solar Bahamut too. And sure, they’ve literally designed every encounter to always have an aoe come out at the 120s counter, but it’s still infuriating to me to have a heal ability that has both a huge cool-down and a limited window in which it’s used. Either let us use it when we need it or turn it into something actually valuable outside of no-healer runs lol.

Unfortunately for us, regarding your second point, that’s literally how they balance job design right now lol. Gnash thing from Viper being a salient example. They removed it from existence purely on the basis that someone might forget to apply it and lower their dps. And I mean, while it’s not tank eHP, doesn’t every dps job have at least one defensive ability along with Bloodbath, Arm’s Length and Second Wind precisely for ‘if they get something they’re not supposed to?’. The devs’ approach to most feedback ends up being ‘homogenise class design then remove anything that might cause variations in skill’. I guess I’m just worried they might get ideas lol

I’d just hate to see Raise removed/restricted from casters purely because ‘that’s for the healers’ or some other weird developer justification they’ll give. Extending it to other jobs I’m personally neutral on, though I do feel like Raise on Black Mage would be (ironically) a paradox lol. And that’s not considering other forms of raise that have a cool-down i.e Phoenix Down items. But for the spell itself I feel like it’d be better if they keep it the way it is for every job that has it

[Lyth]

Raise intrinsically has limitations built into it, as the spell has an MP cost attached. Even if you're a RDM in casual content, you will quickly bottom out if you're trying to chain raise your party (see: Bozja raise achievements). If you want to standardise Raise across the role as a spell, you'll run into balance issues because of significant differences around how BLM and PCT's MP management works relative to the raise casters.

If you were introducing Phoenix Down as a ranged role action, then you would need some other equivalent limitation in place of the MP cost. That may mean giving the action charges and a recast (and this could be scaled relative to content difficulty). I don't think that it's a problem, because more jobs would be raise capable on average, which in turn means that you would have more consistent access to it. If anything, you'd probably need to have some form of mandatory cast time with a charge system to keep it from being too easy to get players back up.

Just as an aside, I'd also like to see Second Wind replaced with a similar standardised Potion action available to all roles. Give players a fixed number of starting charges, and let lt refill on a recast timer. You could even trait it to upgrade in potency with higher levels (Hi-potion/X-potion).