Please let summoner keep raise

[Galvuu]

Yoshi-P: ‘we might make jobs more unique/individual in 8.0’

Community: ‘make all the casters the same by removing raise from Summoner and Red Mage!’

Yoshi-P: ?????

Be careful what you wish for.

This a thousand times over. Casters are the last subrole with a meaningful distinction within each job (both in terms of gameplay and especially the utility they bring).
People lament the homogenization of jobs... but then make a fuss over the rez. Bringing or not a rez caster is a meaningful choice with pros and cons right now. No role has something comparable to this. We should cherish this.
Balance is messed up, but it's not hard to give RDM/SMN a 2/3% overall buff without changing how raises are distributed (SMN with the slower rez, RDM with chain rez, BLM and PCT with no rez, tho PCT has the aoe shield instead).

[Lyth]

The problem comes down to how that distinction is valued. As an example, let's take a look at the difference in the upper quartile rDPS between the top performing and worst performing jobs on each subrole on a given fight:

• Tanks: 232.7
• Healers: 1175
• Melee: 560.8
• Physical Ranged: 649.7
• Magical Ranged: 2608

It's incredibly easy to say 'just give them 2%' when there's a 10% discrepancy within the Magical Ranged role. This isn't a utility vs. damage trade-off on a support role, either - the primary function of a DPS job is to do damage. You're taking on this loss simply for giving your team access to an extra raise - even if you never get a chance to use it!

With the advent of PCT bringing a significant amount of completely untaxed utility, you really have to question how these jobs are balanced. To add insult to injury, the shared gearing makes it common enough practice to prog on one job and clear on the other. Why should there be a continued subrole split between 'progression casters' and 'damage casters'?

There's also the question of where Physical Ranged DPS sits in all this. You could argue that DPS is balanced as if SMN and RDM are actually part of the Physical Ranged category instead of Magical Ranged category. If we did this, the numbers would be:

• Physical Ranged: 649.7
• Magical Ranged: 468.13

What this shows you is that half of the casters are balanced as if they're Physical Ranged jobs. Except they have access to raise, and Physical Ranged jobs don't.

If you're going to bother to have subroles, jobs within these subroles should offer relatively similar DPS. A degree of variation in both utility and damage is natural. Variation that puts you in a completely different subrole category is not.

The solution is this: standardise raise, restore subrole DPS parity. I'd go a step further and say standardise raise across all ranged jobs, and grant DPS parity to all ranged jobs, regardless of whether they have a physical or magical job aesthetic.

[Valence]

I'd take a raise taxed caster DPS over a mobility taxed rphys DPS any day.

The irony is that rphys are all protected within their own role bubble by the party bonus even if they are all shit, when SMN and RDM have to contend with BLM and PCT without the protection of their role party bonus because their direct challengers now are their own role. But rphys jobs still suck more than SMN and RDM by miles, especially BRD and MCH (DNC at least can justify having good heals like SMN and RDM).

It's sad how all those jobs are only surviving through artificial band aids like party bonus and whatnot, and the more casters they do add to the roster, the more cracks are going to show.

[Supersnow845]

I'd take a raise taxed caster DPS over a mobility taxed rphys DPS any day.

The irony is that rphys are all protected within their own role bubble by the party bonus even if they are all shit, when SMN and RDM have to contend with BLM and PCT without the protection of their role party bonus because their direct challengers now are their own role. But rphys jobs still suck more than SMN and RDM by miles, especially BRD and MCH (DNC at least can justify having good heals like SMN and RDM).

It's sad how all those jobs are only surviving through artificial band aids like party bonus and whatnot, and the more casters they do add to the roster, the more cracks are going to show.

The rezz casters are also “protected” by the fact that the damage casters can fill the 4th slot

Rather than it being 2/1/1 or 1/1/1/x they seem to be balancing it 2/2, 2 high damage dealers, 2 lower damage dealers where at least 1 higher damage dealer has to be melee and at least 1 lower damage dealer has to be a phys ranged

[BabyYoda]

The rezz casters are also “protected” by the fact that the damage casters can fill the 4th slot

Rather than it being 2/1/1 or 1/1/1/x they seem to be balancing it 2/2, 2 high damage dealers, 2 lower damage dealers where at least 1 higher damage dealer has to be melee and at least 1 lower damage dealer has to be a phys ranged

So redmage and Summoner are just a support jobs

Which I mentioned before that we have to create new role for dps jobs that are supports..
SMN, RDM, BRD,DNC all of them should have rezz and utility

[Connor]

So redmage and Summoner are just a support jobs

Which I mentioned before that we have to create new role for dps jobs that are supports..
SMN, RDM, BRD,DNC all of them should have rezz and utility

I mean, it could be a solution. Unfortunately any mention of ‘support jobs’ in FFXIV will get you lynched at light speed by the ‘bUt tHe EnCoUntEr dEsiGn BaLaNcInG ’ players looking for literally any reason to make everything more dps oriented

[Lyth]

Not really sure why anyone would suggest that raise casters are 'protected'. If you look at the fastest clears, there are two fights where RDM and SMN have 0% representation. That's even worse than MCH. BLM isn't much better off, but at least there are a few dedicated fans that optimise on it purely for the sake of challenging themselves. Meanwhile PCT has a lock on the caster slot, with up to 98% representation in some cases. That's not a caster slot, it's a PCT slot. The caster role is a mess right now. And I say that as someone who remembers Stormblood tanking.

And this outcome is predictable. Because you're effectively trading off 10% of your damage output for that raise. RDM/SMN have a role to play in initial progression when you're trying to understand how a mechanic works, but outside of that you're going to prefer to replace them.

Now if you buffed SMN and RDM to PCT levels, something interesting happens. You wouldn't replace a melee slot, you would replace the Physical Ranged slot. Because the DPS difference that PCT provides makes up for the 1% inclusion bonus. All of these scenarios are bad.

Standardize access to raise on ranged jobs. Give them all DPS parity. Let players bring the ranged jobs that they like. Bring the player, not the job.

[Connor]

Not really sure why anyone would suggest that raise casters are 'protected'. If you look at the fastest clears, there are two fights where RDM and SMN have 0% representation. That's even worse than MCH. BLM isn't much better off, but at least there are a few dedicated fans that optimise on it purely for the sake of challenging themselves. Meanwhile PCT has a lock on the caster slot, with up to 98% representation in some cases. That's not a caster slot, it's a PCT slot. The caster role is a mess right now. And I say that as someone who remembers Stormblood tanking.

And this outcome is predictable. Because you're effectively trading off 10% of your damage output for that raise. RDM/SMN have a role to play in initial progression when you're trying to understand how a mechanic works, but outside of that you're going to prefer to replace them.

Now if you buffed SMN and RDM to PCT levels, something interesting happens. You wouldn't replace a melee slot, you would replace the Physical Ranged slot. Because the DPS difference that PCT provides makes up for the 1% inclusion bonus. All of these scenarios are bad.

Standardize access to raise on ranged jobs. Give them all DPS parity. Let players bring the ranged jobs that they like. Bring the player, not the job.

I mean, short of doing as mentioned above and splitting the ranged into ‘pure damage’ and ‘support’ as actual sub roles (which wouldn’t be possible because game design etc lol), wouldn't this also go back to the thing of having the ranged role merged? Then some kind of role skill Raise could go in there and suddenly the amount of jobs with that utility triples, meaning there’d be more flexibility in party comp since you’re not having to consider reserving a spot specifically for RDM/SMN. Also if more jobs can assist with recovery it gives developers more license to have involved / challenging healing mechanics.

Only issue there would be how role skills work; would phys ranged get Swiftcast and Lucid? Casters with Head Graze? I still kinda love the image of a Summoner whacking someone with their book so hard they’re stunned into silence lol. I don’t think we’ve had two groups of jobs with different role skills within the same category, so idk how that would work.

Still, in a world where dreams come true I do think it’d make more sense to just split ranged into ‘support’ and ‘damage’. I mean, wouldn’t it be much better for MCH if it was being balanced against Black Mage and Pictomancer over Bard and Dancer? Or Bard and Dancer actually being balanced against what Red Mage/Summoner have instead of just being ‘automatic raid buff machine with less damage’ lol.

[Lyth]

You could preserve the existing role designations if you felt it was really important. As an example, Arm's Length is shared by Tanks, Melee, and Physical Ranged. You can easily do the same thing with a Phoenix Down action shared across Physical Ranged and Magical Ranged.

On the role actions front, I think all of the roles could benefit from a system-wide review. Even within Magical Ranged jobs, there's significant variation in terms of how individual jobs consume and generate MP, as well as their approaches to instant casts. That's one of the reasons why a Raise 'spell' likely wouldn't work as a role action, given BLM's MP generation system and access to Triplecast. You'd almost certainly need to find another means to limit its use, be it either a charge system, recasts, or both, which is why I suggested going the Phoenix Down action route. Healers can naturally continue with their existing Raises for more on-demand access.

You probably could come up with a common set of role actions for Ranged jobs, and find ways to give them more consistent value. Actions that are more specific like Lucid or Swiftcast could be incorporated into individual job toolkits as required, or alternatively, you could find ways to repurpose them with dual functionality.

The problem with creating 'support' and 'damage' subdivisions is because the primary function of any DPS is to deal damage, and it's difficult to trade-off utility vs. damage. Ideally, you should have relatively balanced DPS numbers across the category, and instead give jobs unique utility actions that don't have a clear comparison point. For example, instead of having a Petolon role action that can only be used outside of combat, could either DNC or BRD have a job specific action to speed up their teammates movements? Could SMN or RDM create a Warp portal between two points in the map for teammates to use? Could BLM share their Leylines for once (I know, I know, but I'm only asking). Balance mainly becomes an issue when one job's action is a clear upgrade of the other.

[Tunda]

You could preserve the existing role designations if you felt it was really important. As an example, Arm's Length is shared by Tanks, Melee, and Physical Ranged. You can easily do the same thing with a Phoenix Down action shared across Physical Ranged and Magical Ranged.

On the role actions front, I think all of the roles could benefit from a system-wide review. Even within Magical Ranged jobs, there's significant variation in terms of how individual jobs consume and generate MP, as well as their approaches to instant casts. That's one of the reasons why a Raise 'spell' likely wouldn't work as a role action, given BLM's MP generation system and access to Triplecast. You'd almost certainly need to find another means to limit its use, be it either a charge system, recasts, or both, which is why I suggested going the Phoenix Down action route. Healers can naturally continue with their existing Raises for more on-demand access.

You probably could come up with a common set of role actions for Ranged jobs, and find ways to give them more consistent value. Actions that are more specific like Lucid or Swiftcast could be incorporated into individual job toolkits as required, or alternatively, you could find ways to repurpose them with dual functionality.

The problem with creating 'support' and 'damage' subdivisions is because the primary function of any DPS is to deal damage, and it's difficult to trade-off utility vs. damage. Ideally, you should have relatively balanced DPS numbers across the category, and instead give jobs unique utility actions that don't have a clear comparison point. For example, instead of having a Petolon role action that can only be used outside of combat, could either DNC or BRD have a job specific action to speed up their teammates movements? Could SMN or RDM create a Warp portal between two points in the map for teammates to use? Could BLM share their Leylines for once (I know, I know, but I'm only asking). Balance mainly becomes an issue when one job's action is a clear upgrade of the other.

Let's forget the balance for a second and understand the fantasy behind the jobs.

Summoner who can summon phenix
Redmage a mix between WHM and BLM having raise is part of the identity.

but what about BRD and DNC?
BRD a singer who support party providing utility and having raise will not ruin the fantasy
DNC have raise that is attached with the person that they dance with is so fit to the job identity.

but imagine if we have samurai raise people, systematically it will work but the game is RPG after all.. it is like forcing BLM to have raid buffs because of balance.

and again.. raise should be restricted in specific period of time like summoner can raise people while in phenix state.


it will work but fantasy wise I don't see that fitting