Final Fantasy XIV's Trinity System is Broken

[HyperiusUltima]

Going to reference #FFXIVHealerStrike here, given the fact that it is ongoing, but wanted to highlight for everyone on the forums to see.

Self-sustain outside of Healers is breaking the Trinity. If it is not addressed, then you may as well have thrown 4 Jobs into the trash.

And yes, I know WAR is the biggest problem here: but for those who don't know what the Trinity System is, The Trinity System essentially is a game system that consists of three 'roles' or 'classes' or things that work together to create a balance for the game's content. When one of those roles skews more into another role? It starts to create imbalance.

Think of a Triangle. You want the Triangle to be a perfect triangle, ideally - that way you can keep everyone happy. Tanks are the Blue Corner of the Triangle, DPS are Red Corner, and Healers are the Green Corner.

Right now, this triangle is heavily slanted to the point it's a line. The only thing you see? A very tiny sliver of that triangle, while the Red and Blue Corners are stretched out to their extremes. That shows the state the game is in right now.

Here's a visual.



Corners B and C are Tanks and DPS. Meanwhile, Corner A is Healers. See how stretched out B and C are? That's because they've been getting more things that make them self-sustainable and allow them to simply take a 3rd DPS. If A is rendered unneeded, then B and C will simply take their place because they're faster - if not more efficient than Healers in terms of recovering HP. When a role loses depth, they start to become irrelevant in all types of content that isn't hard requiring a Healer to be there.

As shown in Endwalker, Dungeons are clearable with Tanks and 3 DPS. Savage and EX was clearable with Tanks and DPS. Ultimates were cleared with Tanks and DPS.

So, what does this have to say about content? Either the jobs themselves are overreaching their role, or the content's damage output is too low for healers to be required, not accounting for all types of avoidable damage.

If either of these statements you say 'yes' to, then you agree with the image shown: That the Trinity is broken in such a way that you might as well not have one going into Dawntrail.

[Musashidon]

it's all working just fine.

most players need all roles to do content.

[TheDustyOne]

it's all working just fine.

most players need all roles to do content.

[Rithy255]

The only reason why people have a healer is because DF forces you to have one, I can tell you for sure I do not need a healer in my expert dungeons, I don't even play much warrior, on the other tanks I take so little damage. The fact that even beyond this even if damage was way harder where tanks would actually need some help warrior would still not need a healer, so that job in particular needs adjustments to sustain, honestly I wouldn't even mind giving warrior more Mitigation or something in exchange of leveling down its sustain; even if it had half the sustain it did in DT it would still be a good tank.

The issue isn't just tank Mitigation/sustain, warrior, healer design, Fights not doing enough damage, Non-healer group/target healing, out going AOE damage, Theirs so many issues with how the current design works that it generally just feels awful to play for both healer's and tanks I'd argue, I don't like being a tank who just presses one mitigation and feels bassically nothing, I actually want to work with my healer to keep myself and my team alive through our cds together.

Theirs a argument that "it's just dungeons" but I think healers deserve to actually have a purpose even in the easiest group content. I'm not saying it needs to be super difficult or gatekeep, but they should at least make bringing a healer feel more then a hinderance.

I also think "nerf tank" is nice on paper but I don't think it's a issue with strong cooldowns (outside some like bloodwhetting ect). It's more the baseline tankyness of tanks is already strong with how high the tank passive is and how high your general defensives are, I'd love it if they put more importance on tanks cycling mits and using party support to help the healer not replace them. It should feel like a team game with a team effort.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The other problem is that the majority of heals added are oGCDs, meaning healers don't actually have to cast them, which makes the DPS rotation, or lack there of, stand out even more.


Tank self sustain needs a huge nerf. Move healing from oGCDs to GCDs, and add damage oGCDs instead.

[Menriq]

Going to reference #FFXIVHealerStrike here, given the fact that it is ongoing, but wanted to highlight for everyone on the forums to see.

Self-sustain outside of Healers is breaking the Trinity. If it is not addressed, then you may as well have thrown 4 Jobs into the trash.

And yes, I know WAR is the biggest problem here: but for those who don't know what the Trinity System is, The Trinity System essentially is a game system that consists of three 'roles' or 'classes' or things that work together to create a balance for the game's content. When one of those roles skews more into another role? It starts to create imbalance.

Think of a Triangle. You want the Triangle to be a perfect triangle, ideally - that way you can keep everyone happy. Tanks are the Blue Corner of the Triangle, DPS are Red Corner, and Healers are the Green Corner.

Right now, this triangle is heavily slanted to the point it's a line. The only thing you see? A very tiny sliver of that triangle, while the Red and Blue Corners are stretched out to their extremes. That shows the state the game is in right now.

Here's a visual.



Corners B and C are Tanks and DPS. Meanwhile, Corner A is Healers. See how stretched out B and C are? That's because they've been getting more things that make them self-sustainable and allow them to simply take a 3rd DPS. If A is rendered unneeded, then B and C will simply take their place because they're faster - if not more efficient than Healers in terms of recovering HP. When a role loses depth, they start to become irrelevant in all types of content that isn't hard requiring a Healer to be there.

As shown in Endwalker, Dungeons are clearable with Tanks and 3 DPS. Savage and EX was clearable with Tanks and DPS. Ultimates were cleared with Tanks and DPS.

So, what does this have to say about content? Either the jobs themselves are overreaching their role, or the content's damage output is too low for healers to be required, not accounting for all types of avoidable damage.

If either of these statements you say 'yes' to, then you agree with the image shown: That the Trinity is broken in such a way that you might as well not have one going into Dawntrail.

I think an important data point is missing, and that is skill. You mention savage and ultimates are cleared without healers. I don't think it's a far stretch to say those groups doing that are highly skilled. I can do the same thing in WoW with Mythic raids and really high keys in M+ (MDI, the official Blizzard tournament, had groups with no healers).

Most groups, at least from what I can gather, do not possess that same skill. Therefore, healers will end up healing more often. Now, I can certainly understand the argument about healers needing more DPS options. I also get the argument about the other jobs having too much sustain. However, my counterargument would be that this can swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. For example, if a tank or DPS dies, the healer can rez them and continue on. With having more healing required, if your group does not have RDM or SMN, then it would be almost a guaranteed wipe since there would no way to deal with the higher healing needed. So if the sole argument is for healers to get more DPS options, then I think there would be a lot more support for that approach (although those people who just want more to heal would disagree).

[Vhana]

However, my counterargument would be that this can swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. For example, if a tank or DPS dies, the healer can rez them and continue on. With having more healing required, if your group does not have RDM or SMN, then it would be almost a guaranteed wipe since there would no way to deal with the higher healing needed. So if the sole argument is for healers to get more DPS options, then I think there would be a lot more support for that approach (although those people who just want more to heal would disagree).

Unfortunately, as long as the healer is the only party member whose death cannot be countered by default, they cannot have access to a larger piece of the DPS pie either. They could have a fancier more complex rotation, but will be contributing the same damage for more effort. They have to be slightly expendable in both healing and dps categories in the current design so their death doesn't result in a fail state. So could we see healers that are more fun to play? Definitely. But will we stop seeing 1tank/3dps clears? Unlikely.

Balancing encounter design for how resurrection works in ffxiv is something the devs continue to struggle with. Hopefully they figure it out someday.

[Striker44]

Genuine question - What is that visual supposed to represent? How were the specific angles and side lengths arrived at? Or is it some baseless thing someone threw together in an attempt to sound like they have a point?

[HighlanderClone]

Going to reference #FFXIVHealerStrike here, given the fact that it is ongoing, but wanted to highlight for everyone on the forums to see.

Self-sustain outside of Healers is breaking the Trinity. If it is not addressed, then you may as well have thrown 4 Jobs into the trash.

And yes, I know WAR is the biggest problem here: but for those who don't know what the Trinity System is, The Trinity System essentially is a game system that consists of three 'roles' or 'classes' or things that work together to create a balance for the game's content. When one of those roles skews more into another role? It starts to create imbalance.

Think of a Triangle. You want the Triangle to be a perfect triangle, ideally - that way you can keep everyone happy. Tanks are the Blue Corner of the Triangle, DPS are Red Corner, and Healers are the Green Corner.

Right now, this triangle is heavily slanted to the point it's a line. The only thing you see? A very tiny sliver of that triangle, while the Red and Blue Corners are stretched out to their extremes. That shows the state the game is in right now.

Here's a visual.



Corners B and C are Tanks and DPS. Meanwhile, Corner A is Healers. See how stretched out B and C are? That's because they've been getting more things that make them self-sustainable and allow them to simply take a 3rd DPS. If A is rendered unneeded, then B and C will simply take their place because they're faster - if not more efficient than Healers in terms of recovering HP. When a role loses depth, they start to become irrelevant in all types of content that isn't hard requiring a Healer to be there.

As shown in Endwalker, Dungeons are clearable with Tanks and 3 DPS. Savage and EX was clearable with Tanks and DPS. Ultimates were cleared with Tanks and DPS.

So, what does this have to say about content? Either the jobs themselves are overreaching their role, or the content's damage output is too low for healers to be required, not accounting for all types of avoidable damage.

If either of these statements you say 'yes' to, then you agree with the image shown: That the Trinity is broken in such a way that you might as well not have one going into Dawntrail.

While tanks and DPS have been overreaching, this is largely because Square Enix has removed sources of role identity from tanks and DPS, and therefore have to compensate and add new "toys" to those roles.

Tanks got their aggro management and positioning removed. To compensate, SE gave them spot healing.

DPS got their damage synergy removed, so SE gave them "synergy" in the form of mitigations.

I've been mainly playing "other games" as so many in this forum loves to tell people to do. You actually feel like tanking in other MMOs. You are there soaking damage, parrying the boss, taunting the boss like a Chad, eating mechanics everyone else has to dodge for, defending your squishy party members to let them get uptime... There is none of that tank identity in FF14 anymore. Tanks right now feel more like healers than tanks.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

While tanks and DPS have been overreaching, this is largely because Square Enix has removed sources of role identity from tanks and DPS, and therefore have to compensate and add new "toys" to those roles.

Tanks got their aggro management and positioning removed. To compensate, SE gave them spot healing.

DPS got their damage synergy removed, so SE gave them "synergy" in the form of mitigations.

I've been mainly playing "other games" as so many in this forum loves to tell people to do. You actually feel like tanking in other MMOs. You are there soaking damage, parrying the boss, taunting the boss like a Chad, eating mechanics everyone else has to dodge for, defending your squishy party members to let them get uptime... There is none of that tank identity in FF14 anymore. Tanks right now feel more like healers than tanks.

Except tanks werent really the aggro managers, DPS and Healers were.


DPS still have damage synergy, what are you even talking about. Its why we are stuck with the 2 min meta. Damage synergy.