Some DRK changes seem annoyingly simple yet are ignored....

[wildvenonat]

Sure, I won't deny you that, but removing it's MP cost doesn't have to and even should not change that functionality of it.

Plus the other tanks also get options to use on friends as well, that actually tend to do a lot more then just give a shield.

The MP cost makes it so that it's desirable to think about when you're using it rather than to press it on cooldown, as it actually feels bad for the shield to not break. This then means it feels more rewarding when it does break.

The other tanks have less tension for whether or not they used their ally mitigation correctly, so they're less satisfying.

It's like the difference between breaking a scholar's shield from a sage's shield. Sage's take slightly longer to perform and have a method to make back your lost damage; Scholar's exist and do not have a pass/fail indicator.

[VicariousXIV]

You asked how they could reintroduce meaningful MP management to DRK...... again, is there in discussing any of this?

Don't try and manufacture a narrative on this, there's no point.

I'm talking and have been talking since I made this whole post about actual possible changes they might do, NOT an overhaul, and yes a full revert is still a fucking overhaul.

If your one answer can't satisfy the realm of actual possibility don't blame me, I even said I would agree with you and you still get pissy about it. FFS open your eyes...

Knowing by exactly when sufficient damage ... negligible.

I find it astonishing you think that's unique to DRK and think it takes some kind of exceptional skill.... that's it. Sorry, DRK is the second easiest tank to play, and TBN being so basic is part of the reason why.

Its sustain, the barrier, is the primary reward. Which is literally all that any other on-demand gets. It just had a small additional one atop that which fits well with DRK's offensive minutia.

By that logic it still loses compared to the other tanks. "The shield is the reward?" Ok so why does that compare to a slightly smaller shield, plus mit, plus healing? It doesn't, is the answer.

You have yet to provide any reasonable warrant that the job would otherwise be given additional depth if this element of depth were removed despite refusing wholesale the historical evidence to the contrary.

Ironic...... I have infact provided actual evidence of what I'm saying, you just choose to disregard it despite your disregard proving my fucking point.

I'm literally trying to advocate for minor changes to DRK and you start ranting about how the examples I provide are minor changes, BRO fucking pay attention! Yeah, they end up playing out similarly, you know why, cause they compensated the changes they made like you fucking asked for evidence of! Holy fucking shit.

...This is you claiming that anything like what we literally had before would be impossible ever to have again, even while now treating a historical fact that job "rehauls" since have universally trended towards simplification as illogical negativism...

Like I said, if they did a rework then I'd be game for it, I just think it's unrealistic so want to bring attention to something that is, you're the one sitting there trying to shoot down literally anything else as impossible.

[VicariousXIV]

The MP cost makes it so that it's desirable to think about when you're using it rather than to press it on cooldown, as it actually feels bad for the shield to not break. This then means it feels more rewarding when it does break.

The other tanks have less tension for whether or not they used their ally mitigation correctly, so they're less satisfying.

It's like the difference between breaking a scholar's shield from a sage's shield. Sage's take slightly longer to perform and have a method to make back your lost damage; Scholar's exist and do not have a pass/fail indicator.

I don't agree, cause you can't just use the other tanks defensives on allies off CD either, and their longer CD can actually hurt you more then just losing out on your tank damage a bit.

But I mean you do you, I just don't find a shield they likely don't even notice that can give me one oGCD attack to be less interesting then watching them heal themselves to full out of nowhere, which is potentially a sacrifice I made if I timed it poorly in the midst of the encounter.

[Agner]

it's the least interactive (ironically) when it comes to endgame and it just flat out fucking sucks in dungeons for no good reason.

To reiterate, I would consider the other defensives stacked more "meaningfully" in jobs other than DRK, but that DRK is still alright defensively. It's fine to say otherwise, but I feel like DRK is hilariously a better baseline for what tanks should be closer to—it obviously feels "squishier" in dungeons, but I don't want my healer to be as bored as I am tanking a dungeon. It's been not difficult to tank a dungeon on DRK whatsoever, assuming your healer is paying a small amount of attention. I remember hearing this big funk about how EW DRK is difficult in dungeons, which is why I actually bothered leveling it this expansion. It still wasn't difficult unless your healer was straight up AFK. That, or paying about as much attention as a tank needs to in a dungeon. Fun stuff.

With that said! What I would certainly not argue against is more interactivity between our defensives, or kit in general. However, I still don't have the trust that the team would make that happen without it still managing to be bland. Things like the already simple DA+AD loop while keeping up Blood Weapon and using Quietus to refill MP seem to have been shot out of the game in favor of one button, no failure copies.

I really don't think those would have ever happened if not for people making a fuss about it, cause while we were bringing it to light most non-DRK players were also actively arguing AGAINST any of those changes!

Well, as you said:

You might have a point though, they dumbed the job down mechanically so they have to ramp up how hard it is to get any meaningful QoL or updates lol

"To walk the path is to suffer. To sacrifice. Justice demands no less. But we must never lose sight of why we chose to walk it."

Surely, too, we are meant to internalize that at this point. :)

Liking it doesn't require desperation nor nostalgia, only having played without and with it.

Ya, that's totally fair. I think it's ok to read my former post (or posts) in a dramatic boomer voice, yappin' about "ye olde days" and such.

It's also pretty absurd that people who didn't play in Stormblood blame it for the loss of this or that other capacity...

I feel silly missing things as simple as dungeon pulls in Stormblood, but I get it. Kits would actually flow back into each other regardless of their issues, and there were at least a degree of inputs required to achieve it. It wasn't hard or anything, but it at least took a little bit of attention to perform. To avoid getting too off topic, I'll end with saying that I'd actually prefer that I don't need to multitask to keep my skull occupied. It'd be nice to focus on just the game when playing the game.

[VicariousXIV]

To reiterate, I would consider the other defensives stacked more "meaningfully" in jobs other than DRK, but that DRK is still alright defensively. It's fine to say otherwise, but I feel like DRK is hilariously a better baseline for what tanks should be closer to—it obviously feels "squishier" in dungeons, but I don't want my healer to be as bored as I am tanking a dungeon. It's been not difficult to tank a dungeon on DRK whatsoever, assuming your healer is paying a small amount of attention. I remember hearing this big funk about how EW DRK is difficult in dungeons, which is why I actually bothered leveling it this expansion. It still wasn't difficult unless your healer was straight up AFK. That, or paying about as much attention as a tank needs to in a dungeon. Fun stuff.

With that said! What I would certainly not argue against is more interactivity between our defensives, or kit in general. However, I still don't have the trust that the team would make that happen without it still managing to be bland. Things like the already simple DA+AD loop while keeping up Blood Weapon and using Quietus to refill MP seem to have been shot out of the game in favor of one button, no failure copies.

Yeah dungeons are easy on everything, but DRK is the only tank that can't make it through on it's own and that is the issue, but you have a point that maybe all 3 other tanks being so much stronger in such easy content might be more of the issue. Regardless, either all three others need to be brought in line or DRK needs to be brought up so the difficulty can be increased, cause if it is as things are now the DRK is boned, strangely in the easiest of contents lol

"To walk the path is to suffer. To sacrifice. Justice demands no less. But we must never lose sight of why we chose to walk it."

Surely, too, we are meant to internalize that at this point.

I think we are, the problem is where there are three other paths to walk that do not require such "suffering or sacrifice," it's hard to not just walk those paths and pray that the outlier is eventually smoothed out, call me weak but if I can unga bunga with WAR and generally just do everything better then the DRK can, or play GNB and retain even more uptime, or just go PLD for more complexity, I don't know if my love for the story and edgy aesthetics are enough to keep me on board even though I would very much like to be, the clunkiness and lack of interactivity within it's own kit is just such a turn-off when it's not an issue the other tanks have since they've already received all the QoL their playerbases asked for, especially when there are people who actually want to keep the bullshit for bullshit reasons. Kinda makes me want to just go to the easier roads and let everyone just be happy with their faux "uniqueness."

But honestly putting it so poetically, that has been the most convincing thing to keep me playing it, for now at least lol There's honestly just so much I do like about the DRK that it's infuriating that it still also has so much nonsense built into it.

[CKNovel]

I think we should keep TBN as it is, it's the only tank CD that is actually different from all other tank CDs.

Oblation, I think is "fine" on its own. It just gets reduced to ridiculous degrees under heavy mitigation and can become a weak 6~5%. Either make an exception for the way Oblation is calculated, make it always 10% on the original damages or extend its duration to allow it to soak auto attacks. Currently there's barely anything to justify its effect, not even the 2 charges.

What bothers me is how Darkside's timer has been unchanged from Shadowbringer, it only matters during the opener and pretty much stays on by itself.
Living Shadow has been introduced in ShB, updated in EW and soon DT but its gameplay still remains the same, you press it and then you forget it. I'm glad more and more people starts to be tired of this kind of automated summon.

I think bloodprice being reintroduced would make sense. I'm not a fan of buttons that shares cooldown but Bloodprice is different enough to be an exception. Just updates its effect, give blood gauge, reduces Delirium cooldown by 1 second everytime you get hit, give back HP on every hit you take...

Finally we need a GCD, a new GCD, the filler is just too boring right now and needs something else than 1 2 3.
Reintroduce Scourge as a 30s GCD or like MCH adds GCDs on 20s/40s cooldowns. I believe it would make DRK a bit more unique compared to the other tanks.

[Ramiee]

But I mean you do you, I just don't find a shield they likely don't even notice that can give me one oGCD attack to be less interesting then watching them heal themselves to full out of nowhere, which is potentially a sacrifice I made if I timed it poorly in the midst of the encounter.

You mean the thing that has killed healing on PLD and WAR. The thing healers loathe? What you described right here is why so many healers prefer TBN, because it doesn't erase their role.
TBN also uniquely has a sort of fail state for fight reclears, if you use it in the wrong places you lose out on a ogcd attack. Erasing the MP cost means you have to lose this attack otherwise it just becomes a chance based ogcd proc every 20 seconds or so, instead of a refund of damage as a reward for a well timed TBN.
TBN is by far the most interesting short CD on a tank.

[wildvenonat]

You mean the thing that has killed healing on PLD and WAR. The thing healers loathe? What you described right here is why so many healers prefer TBN, because it doesn't erase their role.
TBN also uniquely has a sort of fail sake for fight reclears, if you use it in the wrong places you lose out on a ogcd attack. Erasing the MP cost means you have to lose this attack otherwise it just becomes a chance based ogcd proc every 20 seconds or so, instead of a refund of damage as a reward for a well timed TBN.
TBN is by far the most interesting short CD on a tank.

Yeah, pretty much. TBN is interesting for me as a healer to watch someone use because it's helpful, it's available often, and isn't so powerful as to leave me feeling like I don't need to be here. While playing DRK, it's also very fun to judge the amount of damage someone will take, and it's hilarious when a DRK correctly judges that you're about to stand in orange and gets their proc off you.

The other short cooldowns are so strong that it either feels bad to use it on someone else when you would have gotten good use of it on yourself, or they're so free that you're often boring the healer. As much as I enjoy healing and don't mind the simple damage rotation, I want to feel useful at some point.

[VicariousXIV]

I think we should keep TBN as it is, it's the only tank CD that is actually different from all other tank CDs.

Oblation, I think is "fine" on its own. It just gets reduced to ridiculous degrees under heavy mitigation and can become a weak 6~5%. Either make an exception for the way Oblation is calculated, make it always 10% on the original damages or extend its duration to allow it to soak auto attacks. Currently there's barely anything to justify its effect, not even the 2 charges.

What bothers me is how Darkside's timer has been unchanged from Shadowbringer, it only matters during the opener and pretty much stays on by itself.
Living Shadow has been introduced in ShB, updated in EW and soon DT but its gameplay still remains the same, you press it and then you forget it. I'm glad more and more people starts to be tired of this kind of automated summon.

I think bloodprice being reintroduced would make sense. I'm not a fan of buttons that shares cooldown but Bloodprice is different enough to be an exception. Just updates its effect, give blood gauge, reduces Delirium cooldown by 1 second everytime you get hit, give back HP on every hit you take...

Finally we need a GCD, a new GCD, the filler is just too boring right now and needs something else than 1 2 3.
Reintroduce Scourge as a 30s GCD or like MCH adds GCDs on 20s/40s cooldowns. I believe it would make DRK a bit more unique compared to the other tanks.

I don't believe TBN is really all that different, it plays out the same as any other but with less effects and more room to be punished, that's kind of it.

I agree on everything else though, if Oblation didn't get ground into nothing when combined with other defensives then it's flexibility would actually be quite the boon, it's hard though cause percentages scale the way they do not cause of coding but cause that's how percentages just work lol Giving it an enhanced duration though could help a lot, like make it so it lasts longer then most other defensives so the overlap is what stays relevant. Idk, it's a hard one, I still think shifting it into TBN would be the best way of making both better, but a shift in power for Oblation would still be good enough, imo.

And yeah, my initial idea of moving TBN off of MP and adding in more offensive MP options was to provide more interaction since we just have a 1, 2, 3 and not much else, so we still do the basic combo but weave different oGCDs regularly with a far more potent amount of MP regen that requires active upkeep and you solve a lot of the issues of just having 1, 2, 3. New GCDs would also accomplish that too though, especially ones that provide lingering effects.

[VicariousXIV]

You mean the thing that has killed healing on PLD and WAR. The thing healers loathe? What you described right here is why so many healers prefer TBN, because it doesn't erase their role.
TBN also uniquely has a sort of fail state for fight reclears, if you use it in the wrong places you lose out on a ogcd attack. Erasing the MP cost means you have to lose this attack otherwise it just becomes a chance based ogcd proc every 20 seconds or so, instead of a refund of damage as a reward for a well timed TBN.
TBN is by far the most interesting short CD on a tank.

Idk why people think healers just need to heal....

Yes, WAR has too much healing, in dungeons, but providing some extra healing in other content doesn't "kill healers," if that's where the disgruntled rhetoric has moved then it's moved offbase for no reason other then continued outrage for the sake of outrage.

And no, if TBN lost it's MP it would not automatically become a proc instead, that's a guess and not at all what I'm directly suggesting, but regardless it's still just a shield that grants a single oGCD and that's what I'm saying it should remain, even if that is rather bland.

It is by far the least interesting of tank's short CD defensives.