Some DRK changes seem annoyingly simple yet are ignored....

[VicariousXIV]

So yes I know so many people have issues with the current state of DRK that the megathread for it is seemingly the most active place on the entire forums, so some of this may have been brought up and I just didn't find it or it's become "old news," but I'm just so befuddled by the apparent ignorance on this.

There's a few things that to me seem like rather common complaints/requests that the community has brought up for years, and when the other tanks have issues they're almost always addressed in less time then a full expansion, but not with DRK.

Firstly why the fuck do we still have SE and SnD in their current, nearly worthless states in PvE when they've already created interesting and useful version of both abilities in PvP!? I mean I get why people complain about how strong they are in PvP, but in PvE they'd work fantastically in dungeons without making the DRK better then the others, and would provide SOME functionality in endgame content whereas right now they're both just negligible amounts of potency. This feels like the easiest and most straight forward fix that might actually put DRK on par with the other tanks in dungeon efficiency, finally.

Also, why the FUCK does everyone think we all actually like TBN in it's current state? Costing us our damage and only refunding it when used properly, and why do they all think we "celebrate" having the "lowest CD defensive ability" when it's so fucking rare to actually ever get to actually make use of it more then the other tanks get to use their much better and FREE defensives with their slightly longer CDs? I seriously can't tell if it's like some lingering ignorance by people from so many years ago, or if they're all just making excuses to "defend the DRK" cause they grew attached to it and it's awesome storyline but never played it in endgame to know any better, or if other DRK players actually like this subpar ability?

On that note why the fuck does Oblation even exist?

Make TBN free of MP, give it Oblations DR, increase the CD and increase the duration, but keep the breaking mechanic to actually provide a reward for using it properly instead of a means to avoid a punishment.

Add in a new MP costing ability instead, like another oGCD attack that applies the old Bloodprice ability, where the target's attacks restore MP to the DRK (so it still works if you're offtank), so you have to weave it in to maintain proper MP generation, and it might honestly be necessary for something with more MP generation now that Delirium/BW gives so much less MP.

Idk, changes like these seem so fucking obvious, like the BW and LD changes we had to practically beg for last expansion, basic shit seemingly every DRK wants yet we're constantly ignored.

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

Salted Earth pulling enemies to you in PvE could actually be useful, though it would have a billion exceptions when a boss is supposed to be in a particular spot.

TBN is good actually and is DRK's strongest tool, as short cooldown mit it's only surpassed in dungeons by Raw "Hallowed Ground on a 25 sec CD" Intuition and it's older brother Bloodwhetting, while also being very potent at mitigating tankbusters. It is effectively already free unless you move MP out of burst with it actually being a damage gain when used properly and removing that element of DRK is quite literally the only uniqueness left.

Oblation is just the extra mit all short CDs got in Endwalker except better because it's a flexible mit with charges, don't be disappointed just because the tooltip isn't 7 paragraphs, being separate also helps ensure TBN pops.

Bloodprice but you don't have to be hit just isn't Bloodprice, DRK does need more MP management back though it's just Edge gauge now.

[VicariousXIV]

Yeah, bosses would have to be immune to forced movement and probably the blind on SnD as well, but the DR and HoT while inside of it would be the good part in such cases.

And I'm not saying TBN is "bad," it's just worse then basically every other short CD mits the other tanks have, it's FAR worse in dungeons and only functions on par in endgame content, and only when used properly is it "free" cause otherwise it's an actual loss/punishment. The "uniqueness" is also already gone, cause I mean either you punish yourself for using it (the unique part) or you use it properly and it's just a shield "for free" and it functions exactly the same cause you don't have use for it more often then the other tanks cause bosses are designed around the CD for the other tanks. I'm also not saying "just remove it from the MP pool and nothing else," I am saying it should be replaced so the DRK has actual offensive choices to use their MP on, cause right now it's just "use it all on your one offensive ability then pop a shield when the indicator pops up." Mechanically it's all just subpar.

But yeah Oblation is flexible, I'll grant that, I also just don't think that's enough to make it worthwhile as a separate ability. If TBN is so important to the kit they should have given TBN that flexibility and not added more unnecessary bloat.

And yeah, it does not "need" more MP regen, but why not? We're talking about "uniqueness" of the job but at the same time you'd prefer to just keep it as an "Edge gauge?" Providing more tools in the kit to build and dump MP would be that actual uniqueness it's lacking.

[Agner]

Also, why the FUCK does everyone think we all actually like TBN in it's current state?

I believe you misunderstand. While some people definitely love TBN, I wouldn't be surprised if most are attached to it as a relic of a bygone era. It's not clung to out of love, but out of desperation that whatever fun we had does not proceed to fade into the genericisms of the present. At least, that's where I'm at—and I do not trust the current team to improve upon it without somehow managing to knock the wind out of DRK's sails yet again.

I actually don't mind the spot DRK is in currently with regards to defense. It doesn't seem great in comparison to the others, but I feel like they are tuned much more strangely. I just find the offensive toolkit to be, well, offensive.

Idk, changes like these seem so fucking obvious, like the BW and LD changes we had to practically beg for last expansion, basic shit seemingly every DRK wants yet we're constantly ignored.

Back in 2022, I posted that around 4 years ago was the last time any major decisions were made to better the feeling of the job. About 3 months later we ended up getting a great change in the revamped form of Living Dead, and a convenience in the form of BW stacks. I could be completely off base and forgetting other major changes, so do correct me if I'm wrong.

With that said, you're not really wrong. DRK was always that kind of job where you needed to put more effort into play in order to come out equal to others, so maybe they just wanted to apply that to our job feedback as well. It would explain why WAR feedback seems to be implemented more often, at least.

[VicariousXIV]

I believe you misunderstand...... knock the wind out of DRK's sails yet again.

I think that's a fair concern, it's just that I've always played both WAR and DRK and when EW dropped the DRK gets random button bloat and basic bitch potencies, while WAR got all of the potential QoL it could have ever asked for while also getting new abilities that weren't just for damage, so I get to play WAR for a whole expansion where it's fucking awesome! Yes, it's currently overtuned now that it also does the second most damage of the tanks, not arguing that, but I got to experience them actually doing a good job with one of my main jobs, so I'm just left wondering WHY THE FUCK the DRK has barely been touched in comparison?

Cause I don't like where it is right now in terms of defense, it's the least interactive (ironically) when it comes to endgame and it just flat out fucking sucks in dungeons for no good reason. Yeah I know many will just say "dungeons don't matter," and they really don't cause anything can in fact clear them, but the fact DRK struggles so much in comparison is just such a clear and obvious indicator that some things are off with it and it would be so simple to address it if they ever bothered to. But yeah, WAR heals themselves with abilities, GNB gets an excog they can combo with other abilities, and PLD has always had the most defensive options since I started playing, but the DRK just uses some MP to make a shield, it breaks, and they use the damage ability they'd have used otherwise anyways? Yeah it works just as well in endgame as any other tank, there's no denying it's still entirely viable and functional, but it's basic as fuck while also some how being convoluted in how basic it is....

I posted that around 4 years ago....... It would explain why WAR feedback seems to be implemented more often, at least.

Yeah those are the exact scenarios I was referring to actually, not your comments in particular or anything but those instances of getting BW charges and a mini-rework to LD. I really don't think those would have ever happened if not for people making a fuss about it, cause while we were bringing it to light most non-DRK players were also actively arguing AGAINST any of those changes! "You don't need charges on BW, it works fine and now you deal the most damage for the tanks, stop complaining!" or "if they change LD and it doesn't have such a nasty drawback to it's usage it'll be instantly OP and break the balance of the tanks!" Now we have charges, deal less damage then WAR and GNB, and LD simply functions like always should have and is still not even the best invuln, it's just finally comparable.

You might have a point though, they dumbed the job down mechanically so they have to ramp up how hard it is to get any meaningful QoL or updates lol

[Oizen]

I think the current issue with removing that functionality of TBN is you'd ultimately be removing the last real unique job mechanic of dark knight, in favor of making it a 25s Thrill of Battle with no flare to it. It would also be stripping DRK lot of flexibility in the use of mitigation as having Oblation and TBN on low cooldowns as separate buttons does has a lot of benefit to it, some people refuse to see it but it doesn't mean its not there.

Dark Knight needs more mechanics that reward it for taking damage, as I do view it was the revenge tank, so what you run into is that experienced dark knight players are already completely used to the TBN cost and its a borderline nonfactor, while to anyone who doesnt play the job hardcore view it was a major limiting factor. In actuality TBN does indeed give you a notable upside. It allows you to prevent overcapping MP without actually spending it, this is notable because you now have the ability to effectively enter a burst window with 13,000 MP playing into DRK's strength of stockpiling attacks for burst window that lead to its meta dominance of Endwalker.

I dont know about you but I'd rather have it as it is now than a 25s Thrill of Battle with 10% mit, and nothing else notable about it.

[Shurrikhan]

I believe you misunderstand. While some people definitely love TBN, I wouldn't be surprised if most are attached to it as a relic of a bygone era. It's not clung to out of love, but out of desperation that whatever fun we had does not proceed to fade into the genericisms of the present. At least, that's where I'm at—and I do not trust the current team to improve upon it without somehow managing to knock the wind out of DRK's sails yet again.

I mean, it's a more frequent, more flexible (outside of maybe Holy Shelltron), more precise, and higher-skill-ceiling tool that allows us to cheesily keep ourselves from even getting debuffed. It's also the last unique "on-demand" defensive of the bunch. Liking it doesn't require desperation nor nostalgia, only having played without and with it.

It's also pretty absurd that people who didn't play in Stormblood blame it for the loss of this or that other capacity... despite its addition also giving us the largest extent of those other capacities simultaneously. DRK's vampirics reached their most unique, most synergetic, and most powerful... all with the release of TBN.

[VicariousXIV]

I think the current issue with removing that functionality of TBN is you'd ultimately be removing the last real unique job mechanic of dark knight, in favor of making it a 25s Thrill of Battle with no flare to it. It would also be stripping DRK lot of flexibility in the use of mitigation as having Oblation and TBN on low cooldowns as separate buttons does has a lot of benefit to it, some people refuse to see it but it doesn't mean its not there.

Dark Knight needs more mechanics that reward it for taking damage, as I do view it was the revenge tank, so what you run into is that experienced dark knight players are already completely used to the TBN cost and its a borderline nonfactor, while to anyone who doesnt play the job hardcore view it was a major limiting factor. In actuality TBN does indeed give you a notable upside. It allows you to prevent overcapping MP without actually spending it, this is notable because you now have the ability to effectively enter a burst window with 13,000 MP playing into DRK's strength of stockpiling attacks for burst window that lead to its meta dominance of Endwalker.

I dont know about you but I'd rather have it as it is now than a 25s Thrill of Battle with 10% mit, and nothing else notable about it.

But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.

For one I don't think it would just become another Thrill as the shield breaking mechanic should stay and it then has almost all of it's current mechanics intact, cause as you mentioned when someone gets used to playing DRK it becomes kind of a non-factor to use TBN, and you get back your damage anyways, removing it's MP cost changes NONE of that, so calling it "nothing more then Thrill plus 10% mit" is kind of disingenuous.

However once it's removed from the MP pool suddenly CBU3 can actually add to the available skills that make use of MP. Right now if they add a new MP skill it would literally just get in the way cause it's so tied to your main defensive tool, but if MP was instead only used for offensive options then a lot more tools could be added to actually work at differentiating DRK. Start with the idea of reintroducing a version of Bloodprice to give the DRK more active MP regen, so now you're weaving two offensive abilities that give a buff and debuff for you to upkeep, on top of that other skills could be added in the future that can expand upon those options and choices. Meanwhile TBN still functions EXACTLY the same but without an MP cost.

And again, I don't think Oblation's flexibility is enough of a reason for it to exist, cause that flexibility can simply be given to TBN to give it "more flare," since it still actually lacks that, costing MP isn't "flare," imho.

[VicariousXIV]

I mean, it's a more frequent, more flexible (outside of maybe Holy Shelltron), more precise, and higher-skill-ceiling tool that allows us to cheesily keep ourselves from even getting debuffed. It's also the last unique "on-demand" defensive of the bunch. Liking it doesn't require desperation nor nostalgia, only having played without and with it.

It's also pretty absurd that people who didn't play in Stormblood blame it for the loss of this or that other capacity... despite its addition also giving us the largest extent of those other capacities simultaneously. DRK's vampirics reached their most unique, most synergetic, and most powerful... all with the release of TBN.

It's only "more precise" cause of a shorter duration, artificial "preciseness" if anything cause all defensives still have to be used roughly at the same times, and it's "skill ceiling" is actually incredibly low. If anything it's got a higher "skill floor" as it takes slightly longer for new players to grasp it's proper use but once you get the basics you're practically at the low as fuck ceiling already lol Not that the other tank's low CD defensives are "skill intensive," but they all have auxiliary effects that aren't just "use damage ability you'd have used anyways" and actually provide for and emphasize a playstyle that again isn't just "costs MP."

And sure, maybe the DRK felt the best right when TBN was released, that's subjective so I won't deny anyone that sentiment and there's plenty of reason to feel that way, but that was YEARS ago, we've moved past that period of time and the DRK is being left behind because of this apparent need to maintain this now subpar defensive ability.

[Shurrikhan]

But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.

TBN has nothing to do with the degradation of MP management.

What you're doing is like blaming Shinten/Kyuten for the loss of unique costs on Guren/Senei and the pruning of Kaiten and Seigan and if Yaten/Gyoten lost their Kenki costs and damage. They're not the cause; they're the sole survivors.

Likewise, Dark Arts, MP costs on other skills, etc., all existed simultaneously with TBN. The same period in which we got TBN also gave us the most involve MP manipulations and thematic means of sustain that we've ever had, and to which TBN was synergetic, not mutually exclusive.

TBN didn't remove Darkside, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, or spammable Abyssal Drain. It's simply the sole survivor of intentional simplifications.

costing MP isn't "flare,"

Costing MP is, however, the reason TBN can be as flexible as it is, allowing 50% barrier HP (2 casts at 25% each) compressed into as little as 9 seconds. Meanwhile, embedding Oblation into it would both waste its scaling value on non-tanks targets and make TBN itself less flexible.

Not that the other tank's low CD defensives are "skill intensive," but they all have auxiliary effects that aren't just "use damage ability you'd have used anyways" and actually provide for and emphasize a playstyle that again isn't just "costs MP."

The upgrades literally reduce skill ceiling compared to the original version of those skills. The HoTs make a large portion of their on skill's sustain less responsive, less important to time correctly / more worth simply hitting on CD, and Excog is literally autonomous. The inflated upper first half with extended window, meanwhile, reduces the reward of preemptive activations.

And TBN's reward isn't "use damage ability you'd have used anyways". That's neutral. Its auxiliary reward is MP-banking, since you can spend 3k MP before raid buffs to then have an extra 3k MP's to spend during raid buffs. Which is itself trumped by the flexibility of the actual defensive.

And sure, maybe the DRK felt the best right when TBN was released, that's subjective so I won't deny anyone that sentiment and there's plenty of reason to feel that way, but that was YEARS ago, we've moved past that period of time and the DRK is being left behind because of this apparent need to maintain this now subpar defensive ability.

Not remotely my point. You are claiming that TBN is incompatible with more involved MP management, but anyone who played before Shadowbringers knows it wasn't. Anyone who played earlier has literally played with far more involved MP management even outside of TBN and would remember that TBN was synergetic with those other, and far more numerous, sources of depth, not mutually exclusive with them.