Some DRK changes seem annoyingly simple yet are ignored....

[VicariousXIV]

You mean the thing that has killed healing on PLD and WAR. The thing healers loathe? What you described right here is why so many healers prefer TBN, because it doesn't erase their role.
TBN also uniquely has a sort of fail state for fight reclears, if you use it in the wrong places you lose out on a ogcd attack. Erasing the MP cost means you have to lose this attack otherwise it just becomes a chance based ogcd proc every 20 seconds or so, instead of a refund of damage as a reward for a well timed TBN.
TBN is by far the most interesting short CD on a tank.

Idk why people think healers just need to heal....

Yes, WAR has too much healing, in dungeons, but providing some extra healing in other content doesn't "kill healers," if that's where the disgruntled rhetoric has moved then it's moved offbase for no reason other then continued outrage for the sake of outrage.

And no, if TBN lost it's MP it would not automatically become a proc instead, that's a guess and not at all what I'm directly suggesting, but regardless it's still just a shield that grants a single oGCD and that's what I'm saying it should remain, even if that is rather bland.

It is by far the least interesting of tank's short CD defensives.

[Ramiee]

Idk why people think healers just need to heal....

Yes, WAR has too much healing, in dungeons, but providing some extra healing in other content doesn't "kill healers," if that's where the disgruntled rhetoric has moved then it's moved offbase for no reason other then continued outrage for the sake of outrage.

And no, if TBN lost it's MP it would not automatically become a proc instead, that's a guess and not at all what I'm directly suggesting, but regardless it's still just a shield that grants a single oGCD and that's what I'm saying it should remain, even if that is rather bland.

It is by far the least interesting of tank's short CD defensives.

I am not on team healers need to heal im on team healers need to heal and need to dps. Right now all they have is a 1 button damage spam and maybe 2 oGCDS an entire dungeon, with blm that moves up to like 5 oGCDs. Even if Healers had a robust DPS system I would still have this opinion because right now healers DO NOT HEAL, if you have anyone slightly competent in every single difficulty level of this game you will NEVER need to GCD heal. TOP was cleared when it was new with NO healers, tanks being able to heal themselves and others have made healers redundant.

TBN is interesting because it has a sacrifice and a reward you are rewarded for using it well while a WAR just has to press a single AOE to fully heal. You're painfully naive if you think people won't use TBN on CD if it lost its MP cost and was given a short CD. Bard repelling shot back in ARR had 55 potency damage and because of that it was never used as a dodge, it was used as an oGCD attack as well as every single stun in the entire game which also had damage potency. If you have even the slightest chance for free damage from using TBN on cooldown people will do it because damage is king in MMOs. Why do you think gapclosers are incorperated into DPS rotations?
The only thing I would pssiobly agree on is maybe giving the oGCD after the shield break maybe a lifesteal but thats it.

[VicariousXIV]

I am not on team healers .... others have mad healers redundant.

TBN is interesting because .... maybe giving the oGCD after the shield break maybe a lifesteal but thats it.

They "do not heal" in dungeons, 99% of the time in endgame content they are still completely necessary and it's impossible without them, that 1% at the top end who do something extreme like clearing TOP with no healers isn't the norm and should not be a basis to form an opinion on for the rest of the game.

So yes, as mentioned tank healing needs to be reduced, mainly WAR, and I do also think healers need more offensive abilities in general and then relying on oGCD heals shouldn't be demonized either, a proper mix of offense and healing should be the goal.

I also just don't think TBN is a "sacrifice and reward," it's a "break even or get punished" ability. And you're painfully naive if you think people using it for damage is inherently a negative thing. You do make a fair point that it being spammed might become an issue in gameplay, which should be a point of discussion instead of a means to levy insults, but honestly if a DRK player uses it off CD and then misses a tank buster then they fucked up, and if they're using it for more oGCD usage outside of that phase then why would that be a bad thing? Block as much damage as possible and get rewarded with a free oGCD. Everyone is always complaining about DRK being so offensively focused but still losing in damage to the WAR and GNB, so why would providing it some extra damage for proper use and timing (the thing everyone has been saying they like about TBN) be a bad thing at all? Fuck it, give it two charges like Oblation and remove Oblation, so that it CAN be used more often and provide more consistent return while retaining all of the flexibility, that'll even allow it to actually be the "shield tank," food for thought at least, at least better then throwing insults cause of ideas, k? lol

If that just won't work then the offensive uses of MP have to be reworked, or else none of it will ever change or see any additions or improvements, period.

[Ramiee]

They "do not heal" in dungeons, 99% of the time in endgame content they are still completely necessary and it's impossible without them, that 1% at the top end who do something extreme like clearing TOP with no healers isn't the norm and should not be a basis to form an opinion on for the rest of the game.

The fact its possible shows theres an inbalance even if its 1% in sync'd content a healer isnt needed thats an objective balance problem the same way it would be a problem if a tank wasn't necessary. TBN not directly healing you is one of the few tank CDs that doesn't contribute to this problem.

I also just don't think TBN is a "sacrifice and reward," it's a "break even or get punished" ability. And you're painfully naive if you think people using it for damage is inherently a negative thing.

It is, its why Stuns and most movement tools no longer do potency the devs agreed with me. Utility =/ Damage, damage will always matter more to people.

but honestly if a DRK player uses it off CD and then misses a tank buster then they fucked up, and if they're using it for more oGCD usage outside of that phase then why would that be a bad thing?

Because TBN is a good defensive tool thats why WAR and GNB both have barriers on their short GCDs and why theres an entire healing subrole based around barriers.

Everyone is always complaining about DRK being so offensively focused but still losing in damage to the WAR and GNB, so why would providing it some extra damage for proper use and timing (the thing everyone has been saying they like about TBN) be a bad thing at all?

I want DRK to do more damage than WAR and GNB and I think TBN is good tool for it. It refunds MP you could of used on an attack on a shield if you shield well, this doesn't need to change. I want DRK tanking to give you damage for good Defense.

Fuck it, give it two charges like Oblation and remove Oblation, so that it CAN be used more often and provide more consistent return while retaining all of the flexibility, that'll even allow it to actually be the "shield tank,"

Then they would have to erase the MP attack reward from it because then its a chance for two oGCD attacks. I don't think anyone wants it to be a shield tank people want it to be the revenge tank.

If that just won't work then the offensive uses of MP have to be reworked, or else none of it will ever change or see any additions or improvements, period.

Agreed MP should be reworked and good MP management should make DRK have the highest damage ceiling of all Tanks.

[VicariousXIV]

The fact its possible shows theres an inbalance even if its 1% in sync'd content a healer isnt needed thats an objective balance problem the same way it would be a problem if a tank wasn't necessary. TBN not directly healing you is one of the few tank CDs that doesn't contribute to this problem.

And once more I will reiterate that I'm aware there's an imbalance, it just isn't "part of the problem" in the vast majority of endgame content for the even vaster majority of players to use CDs with heals in them every so often.

It is, its why Stuns and most movement tools no longer do potency the devs agreed with me. Utility =/ Damage, damage will always matter more to people.

Uh, yeah, which is why I'm saying combine them better?

Because TBN is a good defensive tool thats why WAR and GNB both have barriers on their short GCDs and why theres an entire healing subrole based around barriers.

I never said barriers were bad. But yes, WAR and GNB having barriers on top of everything else they do is part of the reason why they're so much more interesting then TBN.

I want DRK to do more damage than WAR and GNB and I think TBN is good tool for it. It refunds MP you could of used on an attack on a shield if you shield well, this doesn't need to change. I want DRK tanking to give you damage for good Defense.

Yeah, me too, which is why I made the suggestions I did, cause getting a refund for lost DPS does not equate to more damage then if you'd just gone for damage. You should actually GET more damage for properly using your defense.

Then they would have to erase the MP attack reward from it because then its a chance for two oGCD attacks. I don't think anyone wants it to be a shield tank people want it to be the revenge tank.

Well no, that's my point, you attack with each break, getting two oGCDs likely wouldn't even push it past WAR, much less GNB, not unless the DT changes close the gap a fair amount. And sure, a lot of people might want that, but I've seen A LOT of people saying they want to be "the shield tank" every time I've seen anyone suggest moving away from shielding. But honestly they really just go hand in hand anyways.

Agreed MP should be reworked and good MP management should make DRK have the highest damage ceiling of all Tanks.

DRK not being the highest damage tank just feels like they fucked up, I love WAR but I should not be able to so easily out damage a DRK with it.