Some DRK changes seem annoyingly simple yet are ignored....

[Oizen]

I think the current issue with removing that functionality of TBN is you'd ultimately be removing the last real unique job mechanic of dark knight, in favor of making it a 25s Thrill of Battle with no flare to it. It would also be stripping DRK lot of flexibility in the use of mitigation as having Oblation and TBN on low cooldowns as separate buttons does has a lot of benefit to it, some people refuse to see it but it doesn't mean its not there.

Dark Knight needs more mechanics that reward it for taking damage, as I do view it was the revenge tank, so what you run into is that experienced dark knight players are already completely used to the TBN cost and its a borderline nonfactor, while to anyone who doesnt play the job hardcore view it was a major limiting factor. In actuality TBN does indeed give you a notable upside. It allows you to prevent overcapping MP without actually spending it, this is notable because you now have the ability to effectively enter a burst window with 13,000 MP playing into DRK's strength of stockpiling attacks for burst window that lead to its meta dominance of Endwalker.

I dont know about you but I'd rather have it as it is now than a 25s Thrill of Battle with 10% mit, and nothing else notable about it.

[VicariousXIV]

I think the current issue with removing that functionality of TBN is you'd ultimately be removing the last real unique job mechanic of dark knight, in favor of making it a 25s Thrill of Battle with no flare to it. It would also be stripping DRK lot of flexibility in the use of mitigation as having Oblation and TBN on low cooldowns as separate buttons does has a lot of benefit to it, some people refuse to see it but it doesn't mean its not there.

Dark Knight needs more mechanics that reward it for taking damage, as I do view it was the revenge tank, so what you run into is that experienced dark knight players are already completely used to the TBN cost and its a borderline nonfactor, while to anyone who doesnt play the job hardcore view it was a major limiting factor. In actuality TBN does indeed give you a notable upside. It allows you to prevent overcapping MP without actually spending it, this is notable because you now have the ability to effectively enter a burst window with 13,000 MP playing into DRK's strength of stockpiling attacks for burst window that lead to its meta dominance of Endwalker.

I dont know about you but I'd rather have it as it is now than a 25s Thrill of Battle with 10% mit, and nothing else notable about it.

But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.

For one I don't think it would just become another Thrill as the shield breaking mechanic should stay and it then has almost all of it's current mechanics intact, cause as you mentioned when someone gets used to playing DRK it becomes kind of a non-factor to use TBN, and you get back your damage anyways, removing it's MP cost changes NONE of that, so calling it "nothing more then Thrill plus 10% mit" is kind of disingenuous.

However once it's removed from the MP pool suddenly CBU3 can actually add to the available skills that make use of MP. Right now if they add a new MP skill it would literally just get in the way cause it's so tied to your main defensive tool, but if MP was instead only used for offensive options then a lot more tools could be added to actually work at differentiating DRK. Start with the idea of reintroducing a version of Bloodprice to give the DRK more active MP regen, so now you're weaving two offensive abilities that give a buff and debuff for you to upkeep, on top of that other skills could be added in the future that can expand upon those options and choices. Meanwhile TBN still functions EXACTLY the same but without an MP cost.

And again, I don't think Oblation's flexibility is enough of a reason for it to exist, cause that flexibility can simply be given to TBN to give it "more flare," since it still actually lacks that, costing MP isn't "flare," imho.

[Shurrikhan]

But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.

TBN has nothing to do with the degradation of MP management.

What you're doing is like blaming Shinten/Kyuten for the loss of unique costs on Guren/Senei and the pruning of Kaiten and Seigan and if Yaten/Gyoten lost their Kenki costs and damage. They're not the cause; they're the sole survivors.

Likewise, Dark Arts, MP costs on other skills, etc., all existed simultaneously with TBN. The same period in which we got TBN also gave us the most involve MP manipulations and thematic means of sustain that we've ever had, and to which TBN was synergetic, not mutually exclusive.

TBN didn't remove Darkside, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, or spammable Abyssal Drain. It's simply the sole survivor of intentional simplifications.

costing MP isn't "flare,"

Costing MP is, however, the reason TBN can be as flexible as it is, allowing 50% barrier HP (2 casts at 25% each) compressed into as little as 9 seconds. Meanwhile, embedding Oblation into it would both waste its scaling value on non-tanks targets and make TBN itself less flexible.

Not that the other tank's low CD defensives are "skill intensive," but they all have auxiliary effects that aren't just "use damage ability you'd have used anyways" and actually provide for and emphasize a playstyle that again isn't just "costs MP."

The upgrades literally reduce skill ceiling compared to the original version of those skills. The HoTs make a large portion of their on skill's sustain less responsive, less important to time correctly / more worth simply hitting on CD, and Excog is literally autonomous. The inflated upper first half with extended window, meanwhile, reduces the reward of preemptive activations.

And TBN's reward isn't "use damage ability you'd have used anyways". That's neutral. Its auxiliary reward is MP-banking, since you can spend 3k MP before raid buffs to then have an extra 3k MP's to spend during raid buffs. Which is itself trumped by the flexibility of the actual defensive.

And sure, maybe the DRK felt the best right when TBN was released, that's subjective so I won't deny anyone that sentiment and there's plenty of reason to feel that way, but that was YEARS ago, we've moved past that period of time and the DRK is being left behind because of this apparent need to maintain this now subpar defensive ability.

Not remotely my point. You are claiming that TBN is incompatible with more involved MP management, but anyone who played before Shadowbringers knows it wasn't. Anyone who played earlier has literally played with far more involved MP management even outside of TBN and would remember that TBN was synergetic with those other, and far more numerous, sources of depth, not mutually exclusive with them.

[VicariousXIV]

TBN has nothing to do with the degradation of MP management.

What you're doing is like blaming Shinten/Kyuten for the loss of unique costs on Guren/Senei and the pruning of Kaiten and Seigan and if Yaten/Gyoten lost their Kenki costs and damage. They're not the cause; they're the sole survivors.

Likewise, Dark Arts, MP costs on other skills, etc., all existed simultaneously with TBN. The same period in which we got TBN also gave us the most involve MP manipulations and thematic means of sustain that we've ever had, and to which TBN was synergetic, not mutually exclusive.

TBN didn't remove Darkside, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, or spammable Abyssal Drain. It's simply the sole survivor of intentional simplifications.


Costing MP is, however, the reason TBN can be as flexible as it is, allowing 50% barrier HP (2 casts at 25% each) compressed into as little as 9 seconds. Meanwhile, embedding Oblation into it would both waste its scaling value on non-tanks targets and make TBN itself less flexible.

I never said it "killed" MP management, I said it's CURRENTLY the reason why they can't expand on it, not without other overhauls.

If you seriously think everything would be fine if more MP skills were added, then provide me an example? What could CBU3 add into the DRK's kit that would add more uniqueness to it that cost MP while not getting in the way of the current playstyle of burning it on Edge and making sure to have enough for TBN? Cause if you tried mixing in something like my suggestion for without TBN costing MP then you simply make having enough for TBN so easy that the cost again becomes pointless.

TBN can also be just as flexible even if it didn't cost MP. People said nearly the same thing when I was advocating for LD to get updated, to just mostly remove the drawbacks of so easily dying when you used it, and I was always met with a wall of "but then it becomes too strong and they have to make it weaker to balance it which will result in it losing all of it's identity," but hey look at that they mostly removed the drawbacks and it's fucking awesome without being OP and is even more unique! I soundly believe it would be the same for TBN, it's just a shield, allow it to be flexible and also remove it's MP cost so that the MP usage can be expanded on again.

EDIT: You added a lot after I started my reply lol

[Shurrikhan]

I never said it "killed" MP management, I said it's CURRENTLY the reason why they can't expand on it, not without other overhauls.

But it's not. TBN does not need to give (modern) "Dark Arts" nor the name "Dark Arts" be limited to giving free Edge/Flood casts. Edge/Flood is not TBN. TBN does not need to give free Edges/Floods. Nor did it originally give free Edges/Floods.

They simply had TBN go from giving empowered GCDs (via 50 Blood, which you'd spend on Bloodspiller or Quietus for a boost over combo average ppgcd worth X potency-per-MP spent) to giving oGCD attacks because their Shadowbringers simplifications included removing Dark Arts, which would otherwise have left DRK with a massive apm gulch to fill that would have otherwise upset even more DRK players.

Cause if you tried mixing in something like my suggestion for without TBN costing MP then you simply make having enough for TBN so easy that the cost again becomes pointless.

Then don't make it not cost MP?

If you seriously think everything would be fine if more MP skills were added, then provide me an example? What could CBU3 add into the DRK's kit that would add more uniqueness to it that cost MP while not getting in the way of the current playstyle of burning it on Edge and making sure to have enough for TBN?

Literally Dark Arts in place of Edge/Flood, with

• each Dark Arts offensive spender not on a CD having X effective-potency-per-MP-spent plus varied utility (be that banked MP, additional healing done, suppression, or what-have-you),
• the rotational CD-locked offensive spenders (Shadowbringers, Carve and Spit) having higher effective-potency-per-MP-spent, directly or indirectly (as per follow-up buffs) to encourage margining for them as well,
• the other (non-TBN) defensive spenders, if any, generally having enough indirect rDPS value via whatever combination of saved healer GCDs/resources and/or counteroffensive attacks/buffs to be frequently optimal over non-CD directly offensive spenders (except when their burst healing or damage is more necessary at that particular moment) until overgearing content,
• and successfully popped TBNs again giving Blood (even if allowed an overcap margin for reduced skill floor), with said Blood spenders being tuned over combo appgcd sufficiently to compete with Dark Arts for successful pops only, and
• more MP actively generated per minute (instead of merely having costs nullified via CDs) such that one can more often burst in multiple means of sustain into the same TBN CD's period and for more APM between bursts (even if we might, say, have a couple actions less per 2-minute burst)...

...as would befit any actually involved use of a gauge.

Again, what you're saying is the equivalent to "We can't have Kaiten because we already have Shinten." You can have competing spenders, and the MP gauge would be better utilized for it.

Skills being stronger doesn't automatically mean "easier,"

Not inherently, no, but it does when the strengths added specifically deemphasize skillful timing.

I do think they're all easy to use and yet TBN is even easier still.

But it's not. It's literally not. Start learning how to bank and pre-pop it. I get that the game right now, once geared, is frequently too easy to see the difference, but that goes even more all the other on-demands.

But yeah, it's main reward is infact "use damage ability you lost otherwise,"

Something net-neutral literally cannot be a "reward". Again, the reward has to earn you something. In TBN's case, it's subtle but still existent: an extra Edge/Flood under raid buffs because you can use it to, in effect, bank 3k MP.

And yeah, there used to be A LOT more MP management, that is MY point too.

Which, again, TBN did not remove. TBN's entry introduced the height of DRK's MP manipulations, even when discounting TBN itself. If it were the limiter, it would not have existed simultaneously with that, let alone been synergetic to it.

[VicariousXIV]

They simply had TBN .... would have otherwise upset even more DRK players.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding for what I'm saying, it seems, evident by your suggestions;

Literally Dark Arts in place of Edge/Flood, with [LIST]each Dark Arts offensive spender not on a CD having X effective-potency-per-MP-spent plus varied utility (be that banked MP, additional healing done, suppression, or what-have-you)

You're fully in the realm of "complete overhaul/rework."

The thing is I do completely agree with that, if we could get a full rework to the job then I too think a reintroduction of Dark Arts would be a good route to take and TBN staying an MP ability would fit so much better in a kit where you're building and using MP far more frequently.

But as I've mentioned a few times now, maybe not clearly enough, we've come so far down this current iteration that those options don't work anymore, my suggestions for "easy changes" are deliberately made so the devs might actually do them.

So in THAT scenario, without overhauling the whole MP system, what new ability at the start of an expansion without any other major changes could be added into the kit that costs MP and does not interfere with the current Edge/TBN gameplay? Cause that's the reality we're in, we're not getting a major overhaul.

Not inherently, no, but it does when the strengths added specifically deemphasize skillful timing.

I honestly don't think basic timing is all that "skillful," I guess, utilizing the abilities afterwards is far more "skill" expressive, but again not that I think the other tank's defensives take much skill to use either.

But it's not. It's literally not. Start learning how to bank and pre-pop it. I get that the game right now, once geared, is frequently too easy to see the difference, but that goes even more all the other on-demands.

Don't start to get insulting just cause I don't think pre-popping is "skillful" LOL

Something net-neutral literally cannot be a "reward". Again, the reward has to earn you something. In TBN's case, it's subtle but still existent: an extra Edge/Flood under raid buffs because you can use it to, in effect, bank 3k MP.

Again, that's my point, it's actual mechanics are not a reward at all, this one small auxiliary bonus in that one specific use does not equate to the whole kit being unchangeable or "skillful," it's literally a single button press.

Which, again, TBN did not remove. TBN's entry introduced the height of DRK's MP manipulations, even when discounting TBN itself. If it were the limiter, it would not have existed simultaneously with that, let alone been synergetic to it.

Which, again, is not my point, as expanded on above.

[VicariousXIV]

The upgrades literally reduce skill ceiling compared to the original version of those skills. The HoTs make a large portion of their on skill's sustain less responsive, less important to time correctly / more worth simply hitting on CD, and Excog is literally autonomous. The inflated upper first half with extended window, meanwhile, reduces the reward of preemptive activations.

And TBN's reward isn't "use damage ability you'd have used anyways". That's neutral. Its auxiliary reward is MP-banking, since you can spend 3k MP before raid buffs to then have an extra 3k MP's to spend during raid buffs. Which is itself trumped by the flexibility of the actual defensive.


Not remotely my point. You are claiming that TBN is incompatible with more involved MP management, but anyone who played before Shadowbringers knows it wasn't. Anyone who played earlier has literally played with far more involved MP management even outside of TBN and would remember that TBN was synergetic with those other, and far more numerous, sources of depth, not mutually exclusive with them.

Skills being stronger doesn't automatically mean "easier," but again as I already said I don't think the other tank's defensive CDs are "skill intensive," I do think they're all easy to use and yet TBN is even easier still. But yeah, it's main reward is infact "use damage ability you lost otherwise," the auxiliary bonus of such a small "bank" of MP at buff windows isn't "hard" to pull off as it just requires a single button press and still results in the same scenario as every other instance of it's use. You hit it, forget it, button lights up later, hit it. You don't have to time anything or combo anything with it, you just press it, it's the easiest to use tank defensive there is.

And yeah, there used to be A LOT more MP management, that is MY point too. NOW it's become a limiter cause of all of the changes up to this point in time.

[Oizen]

But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.

Not really, If you removed TBN, DRK's burst would be use edge 3 times and thats it. TBN would probably also be pressed on CD because theres no reason to not.
With TBN, you can minmax it to get 4 edges
There's objectively more going on here.

For one I don't think it would just become another Thrill as the shield breaking mechanic should stay and it then has almost all of it's current mechanics intact, cause as you mentioned when someone gets used to playing DRK it becomes kind of a non-factor to use TBN, and you get back your damage anyways, removing it's MP cost changes NONE of that, so calling it "nothing more then Thrill plus 10% mit" is kind of disingenuous.

If you made it free but left the shield break mechanic you now have to go out of your way to break it every 25s, meaning its now a damage loss to not do that.

However once it's removed from the MP pool suddenly CBU3 can actually add to the available skills that make use of MP.

I have never once seen the developer's remove something with the intent to add something to replace it in this game's 10+ years of existence.
Its remove, simplify, never replace. Its why literally no one believe Yoshida when he says things about Job identity coming soon™
The end result of what your asking for is Thrill of Battle with 10% mit on a 25s cd. They're not going to bring back old skills or make a new MP system for DRK when they can just do this.

[VicariousXIV]

Not really, If you removed TBN, DRK's burst would be use edge 3 times and thats it. TBN would probably also be pressed on CD because theres no reason to not.
With TBN, you can minmax it to get 4 edges
There's objectively more going on here.

So your argument is "don't change it cause in our opener we can get one extra oGCD?" I honestly don't give anywhere enough of a shit about one oGCD in the opener to actually want to leave the job hamstrung otherwise...

If you made it free but left the shield break mechanic you now have to go out of your way to break it every 25s, meaning its now a damage loss to not do that.

Then just make up for it with other abilities or potency balancing? Why is this an issue worth considering at all? If TBN were to be changed that much why would there not be allowed any other even smaller changes? I'm not saying "do this one thing in a vaccuum," I did even brought up multiple changes lol

I have never once seen the developer's remove something with the intent to add something to replace it in this game's 10+ years of existence.
Its remove, simplify, never replace. Its why literally no one believe Yoshida when he says things about Job identity coming soon™
The end result of what your asking for is Thrill of Battle with 10% mit on a 25s cd. They're not going to bring back old skills or make a new MP system for DRK when they can just do this.

No, that is not the end result, that's a baseless assumption you're using to try and justify your position by effectively ignoring most of what I've said.

That's also factually untrue, I mean we JUST got a job actions trailer followed by the info from the media tour where we have seen that exact thing you're saying they "haven't done in 10+ years." NIN just lost Huton but got a whole new job gauge added instead, MNK just had their whole basic rotation reworked to function with a different gauge as well, BLM had several abilities removed and replaced with others that expanded their rotations. I just don't see any logical sense in sticking to such negativity to think "it can never happen so stop wanting better."

[Oizen]

So your argument is "don't change it cause in our opener we can get one extra oGCD?" I honestly don't give anywhere enough of a shit about one oGCD in the opener to actually want to leave the job hamstrung otherwise...

Yes my argument is that TBN allows for a certain level of skill expression in an otherwise scripted game. This is objectively more interesting than press button.

No, that is not the end result, that's a baseless assumption you're using to try and justify your position by effectively ignoring most of what I've said.

Its REALLY not though, I can tell you haven't been around here too long. Or maybe you haven't been paying attention.
Lets look at a recent example, the removal of plunge and how controversial that has been.
They didn't want damage on a utility move anymore and wanted to lower DRK weaving, fine.
So they remove the damage from the gap closer.

What they could have done instead is allow the new gap closer to work like thunderclap, allowing you to dash to the boss or an ally, allowing added utility to make up for the lost damage.
Maybe they could have even buffed Enhanced Unmend, you know the gap closer trait exclusive to Dark Knight, that was already so niche in EW content that it was basically useless because boss hitboxes are so big it just doesn't matter?
Did they do either of this? nah. Just remove the damage.

Enhanced Unmend, arguably one of the worst, most memed on traits in the game, got nerfed. And I guarantee you it didn't even cross their mind when doing making this change.
This is the level of care they put into job reworking, bare minimum, remove, reduce, simplify, never replace or add to it

BLM had several abilities removed and replaced with others that expanded their rotations. I just don't see any logical sense in sticking to such negativity to think "it can never happen so stop wanting better."

The fact you wrote this tells me how aware you are of how well those changes are being received. You really shouldn't argue about things you don't really know anything about.