A plea for RNG and proc based gameplay

[Ramiee]

Add gunbreaker too if double down doesn't crit it does so much less damage lol.

[Azlith]

I'll always be in favor of priority based rotations as they are so much more engaging than a never changing rotation.

[Mikey_R]

I'll always be in favor of priority based rotations as they are so much more engaging than a never changing rotation.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but every rotation is technically a priority based rotation, the difference is how often you have to change your priority.

What is Dragoon's priority? Keeping your damage buff and DoT up. This is why you start with Chaotic Spring combo, then use Heaven's Thrust combo, then back to Chaotic Spring etc. The only time this will change is if you disengage from a boss and so the timer's suddenly don't line up as nicely. You then have to make an on the fly decision as to what to prioritise.

Paladin has no RNG in it's rotation, however, it is also described as a priority rotation, where the priority is flipped when you go into burst.

As for what have called 'priority based rotations', which is just RNG procs changing things more often, it basically boils down to, press the shiny, unless it is to be saved for burst. But every job pools resources for burst, so it is hardly ground-breaking.

Out of all the classes available to us, why not give one that is RNG or proc-based?

Bard, Dancer and Red Mage all base their filler rotation on proc based gameplay.

[Azlith]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but every rotation is technically a priority based rotation, the difference is how often you have to change your priority.

What is Dragoon's priority? Keeping your damage buff and DoT up. This is why you start with Chaotic Spring combo, then use Heaven's Thrust combo, then back to Chaotic Spring etc. The only time this will change is if you disengage from a boss and so the timer's suddenly don't line up as nicely. You then have to make an on the fly decision as to what to prioritise.

Paladin has no RNG in it's rotation, however, it is also described as a priority rotation, where the priority is flipped when you go into burst.

As for what have called 'priority based rotations', which is just RNG procs changing things more often, it basically boils down to, press the shiny, unless it is to be saved for burst. But every job pools resources for burst, so it is hardly ground-breaking.

You might be new to the mmo genre. For a very long time in the mmo scene there are what is referred to as "priority based rotations" and rigid or "static rotations". A priority based rotation sees you following a list of priorities from top to bottom. You have to actually parse the information on screen, understand it and make decisions based on what you are seeing. A static rotation sees you preforming a never changing rotation of abilities, a rotation in the truest sense of the word.

A priority based system does not have to be as simple as "hit the shiny button" and save resources for burst. A well made system will see you spinning several plates in the forms of buffs, debuffs, dots, cooldowns (of different lengths not all the same with some taking precedence over others so you have to make smart decisions on how you enter those cd windows,) procs, movement vs standing still, 1 target, 2 target, 3 target, 4+ targets and many other factors. In FF14, especially in DT, most jobs follow a static rotation model. I can map out every gcd of any given encounter and follow that exact gcd map to the end of the fight to do optimal dmg. That map for that encounter will never change (unless you factor in a targeted kill time which again you can just make another gcd map for) and deviating from that map will result in a dps loss. You can never do this with a priority based system which is why I find them to be more engaging. Oh and no you didn't "burst my bubble" lol.

[Mikey_R]

You might be new to the mmo genre. For a very long time in the mmo scene there are what is referred to as "priority based rotations" and rigid or "static rotations". A priority based rotation sees you following a list of priorities from top to bottom. You have to actually parse the information on screen, understand it and make decisions based on what you are seeing. A static rotation sees you preforming a never changing rotation of abilities, a rotation in the truest sense of the word.
...

None of what you have said disproves the statement that I made in that every job's rotation is based on a priority system, just that some jobs interact with the system more often than others.

As you stated, it is all about damage, when I use Raiden Thrust, I have a choice of Chaotic Spring combo or Heaven's Thrust combo, when Refulgent Arrow procs, you have a choice to use Burst Shot again, or use Refulgent Arrow, etc.

What you want is a job that makes you interact with that priority system more often. However, I think the question should be, how do you want those decisions to come about. What system do you want to see that forces you to interact with that priority system. The type of job you want should then be defined by that system, not the general term 'priority'.

[Azlith]

None of what you have said disproves the statement that I made in that every job's rotation is based on a priority system, just that some jobs interact with the system more often than others.

As you stated, it is all about damage, when I use Raiden Thrust, I have a choice of Chaotic Spring combo or Heaven's Thrust combo, when Refulgent Arrow procs, you have a choice to use Burst Shot again, or use Refulgent Arrow, etc.

What you want is a job that makes you interact with that priority system more often. However, I think the question should be, how do you want those decisions to come about. What system do you want to see that forces you to interact with that priority system. The type of job you want should then be defined by that system, not the general term 'priority'.

You do not have a choice between Chaotic spring combo or heaven's thrust combo. When you play drg you WILL follow an exact and perfect static (never changing) set of gcds and you will not deviate unless you want to do less than optimal dmg. There is no choice being made here, there is no information to parse, just follow the exact set of gcds you are supposed to and you will do optimal dmg. There is no reason to even think, you can literally set up a keyboard macro to do your perfect rotation for you.

I already laid out the definitions of different rotation types that have been established within the mmo space for many many years and I'm not going to do it again. If you can't understand the difference between what is colloquially known in the mmo space as a priority based rotation versus a static rotation then I cannot help you to understand my opinion. If you wish to be pedantic just for the sake of being pedantic then by all means be my guest. I have let my opinion on the topic be known and will not engage in this meaningless pedantry any further. I hope you have a nice day.

[Valence]

But I also think that FF is rigid and that's normal. It's the thing with this game. And I'm not sure that's fair asking for the game to be something it isn't inherently.

( As far as I am concerned, I hate rng with passion but as said, I'm not against some jobs having it as core component for ppl that are looking for this kind of gameplay )

More of them used to be like that and it works. I didn't even touch the idea of encounter rng added to the rigid DDR scripts we're being regurgitated again and again. Always has been, fair enough.

But jobs? Rng and procs have been there since the dawn of times. Saying that it's not something the game is inherently just feels wrong, or it's just denying a huge part of its history.

I played HW MCH and "1-1-1-2-1-2-1" was not fun when you were out of ammo and RNG was not on your side. Ammo existed as a mechanic specifically to ignore the RNG in the rotation. It did have a classic "1-2-3" rotation like almost all other jobs and it used it to build battery charge, but without ammo, being able to progress to the next weaponskill in the 1-2-3 was RNG and it wasn't fun or engaging.

DNC's RNG is OK in my book at least in higher levels because the flow is better and there's so many other things to press, but I would never go back to old MCH.

HW MCH has issues with proc fishing I'll definitely agree especially during no luck midlfires (the ones not synced with Reload). The filler could also be sometimes. That's probably why they reduced the recasts of ammo generators in SB and swappe the gauge to 3 instead of 5 which would overwrite themselves. SB procs felt a lot more satisfying imo. But honestly? If you didn't like it, it's fine. I liked it. Some other people liked it. That's why I'm making this thread. This is literally becoming an endangered gameplay as of now with what's been removed in ShB, and now in DT.

Ammo existed as a tool to control procs, firstly bringing different and interesting gameplay depending on what procs you already had up when using it, which asked the player to adjust to the situation, and secondly was used to properly setup the burst sequence patterns, which also required to adjust depending on what was up. It's a big thing that's been completely lost out of the game because only MCH used to do that. DNC used to in ShB, even if less so and in a more annoying way with flourish, but flourish procs have been changed so it's not there anymore.

Acceleration on RDM amusingly enough has been changed to what it is today and it's close to what Reload used to be, but again it doesn't bring the same challenges at all and only plays on RDM's filler, not on burst pattern sequences.

yall act like you are not all just going to the balance for your full rotation break down and print out anyways..

Jokes's on you, I was in the group that worked on some of those rotations (for ShB on MCH).

It would be nice to have that back for a few classes. However, I just don't see that happening since whoever wanted it gone in the first place will fight to keep it that way.

They can go back to the bland linear jobs they enjoy as far as I'm concerned instead of trying to change the ones other players like like entitled "must have it all or nothing" kids.

If the devs hated RNG they wouldn't have added it to begin with. Removing RNG is a reaction to the community complaining about it any time it pops up.

If the devs hated TP, they wouldn't have added it to begin with.

if the devs hated aggro management, they wouldn't have added it to begin with.

Design views and ideals can change. The people working behind them can also change and have different politics about it as well.

Please, no.

Add new jobs with RNG systems as much as you want, but don't force it on the jobs that actually has none.

Like they did on MCH, just the other way? It felt such a slap in the face for literally no reason. And see, every time we speak about how we found mch fun back then, you'll always have somebody that didn't main it show up and tell us it was shit and not fun. Well it was fun for us mains.

Not saying you're doing that here though and I will like you never advocate for sudden invasive rng to be added to jobs that never had it in their identity, but I'm tired of getting told how the job I mained and enjoyed was not fun. I respect other jobs playstyles, all I'm asking is that other playstyles enjoyers respect mine.

I definitely get where you’re coming from, DNC and BRD are two of my favorite jobs because I love the procs, but I don’t see those two jobs in particular losing procs or getting less in the future. To me it makes sense to add more deterministic moves, but I think procs will always be core to their identity. Hopefully the next ranged job will be similar (although I see it being more likely it leans towards MCH with slightly less selfish gameplay). Other jobs though, to me random procs ruin their flow. If a proc isn’t core to the job, I find it difficult to notice when they happen. But that’s just me; I’m very particular as a controller player, so if I can’t set things up in a way that flows smoothly on the controller and has me pushing things out of place, my brain just can’t adapt.

See that's the problem, the doublespeak of the community.

When we ask if we can have some posititionaless melees to try out melees, we get a huge backlash and we get replied that melee's core identity is about positionals. Which is fair.

Then when we tell people that rphys's core identity used to be procs, we get laughed at and people will fight tooth and nail to keep mch as uninspired as it is right now.

Yet there is literally no constraint on the rphys role like casting for casters or melee uptime/positionals for melees. We used to have more involved rotations and toolkits. We used to have a lot of priority and triaging of resources to deal with, and procs were a core of it all.