RDM in 7.0, the good the bad and the annoying

**Deslyxic** · 06-10-2024 03:29 AM

There isn't a single thread about RDM changes, I guess the changes are so boring is not even worth arguing about them. I don't thing is as boring as SMN changes, but SMN at least have the probable removal of their raise to complain.

I don't know if they expect for every RDM/SMN to jump to PCT, but I'm not 100% sold on PC yet.

Anyway, the good: the change to Moulinete is a god send, also I am very happy it's a change to the core of Moulinete and not changed by trait because that would fall into the extreme annoying category of actions that work different at different level ranges. Also the QoL of Manafication is pretty nice but not exclusive to RDM.

The bad: the OGCD bloat in the opener is exactly the same. This is the standard opener including how I think it will change in DT and as you can see it's almost the same (EW ---> DT):

Code:

(precast) Verthunder	
Veraero	
	Acceleration
	Swiftcast ---> Fleche
Verthunder	
	Tincture
	
Verthunder ---> Grand Impact	
	Embolden
	Manafication
Ripost	
	Fleche ---> Contre-sixte
Zwerchau	
	Contre-sixte ---> Engagement
Redoublement	
	Corps-a-corps
	Engagement ---> Vice of Thorns
Verholy	
	Corps-a-corps
	Engagement
Scorch	
	
	
Resolution	
	---> Cineration

The annoying: I really dislike when there are actions modified by traits that change their timing. See Manafication for example, at 78 it's cooldown get's reduced by 10s, particularly annoying when you sync down and forget that you now have a longer cooldown in it.
Now have the same issue for Swiftcast and Addle to some extent, that you gonna get used to the longer duration only to lose to sync.
I would understand that they modify potency via trait, but I would ask that if timing is involved they change the core action instead. I'm still counting our blessing that Moulinete won't work like this, though.

Also, the change to Acceleration seems good because it now gives 2 GCDs of free movement, but now it has become a DPS gain even in single target (because of Grand Impact), meaning we gonna spending it for damage or saving it's charges for the burst windows, kinda defeating it's purpose as a mobility tool.
Also also, and this is very technical, Acceleration offering now two insta cast GCDs it not longer works as a weave window re-alignment like before, meaning that cannot change the order of cast/dualcasts to not drift Fleche/Contre-sixte, and that we rely even more on Swiftcast to fix the alignment, defeating it's purpose as mobility tool too. Maybe they expect we start using Reprise.

**Sequora** · 06-10-2024 08:37 AM

I’m impressed with the red mage changes. It honestly didn’t even need much, and we get a couple of extra buttons to press during burst phases. There’s also some good QoL changes.

I like that RDM is a little more complex than SMN.

I hope they revisit RDM job identity in 8.0. It started as what a traditional red mage was in older games - some white and black mage with a little melee. Over the last 3 expansions we’ve slowly become the rose mage. I want more white and black magic. A little sad that we have 4 out of 6 elements and PIC is launching with all 6 elements plus white and black aspected spells.

It’s hard to judge jobs in the first month. I’m sure tons of people are going to flock to PIC because it’s shiny and new. Give it a few months and 90% of people go back to their mains. It happens every expansion.

That being said, I think the aesthetic might push people away more quickly.

**Jade_Tyrant** · 06-10-2024 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Deslyxic

The bad: the OGCD bloat in the opener is exactly the same.

Personally I don't mind the number of oGCDs in the opener. I think it's pretty fun to open up a fight with the rush of actions and high APM.

Originally Posted by Deslyxic

Also, the change to Acceleration seems good because it now gives 2 GCDs of free movement, but now it has become a DPS gain even in single target (because of Grand Impact), meaning we gonna spending it for damage or saving it's charges for the burst windows, kinda defeating it's purpose as a mobility tool.

Acceleration being an instant cast at all has made it a DPS gain already in Endwalker, because it's an extra use of the long-cast spells which are more damage than the short cast. Using it for burst windows will likely be rare because our buff windows are already full up with two melee combos; there are situations where we can't get two combos under buffs, but as far as I'm aware it doesn't tend to be common.

Originally Posted by Deslyxic

Also also, and this is very technical, Acceleration offering now two insta cast GCDs it not longer works as a weave window re-alignment like before, meaning that cannot change the order of cast/dualcasts to not drift Fleche/Contre-sixte, and that we rely even more on Swiftcast to fix the alignment, defeating it's purpose as mobility tool too. Maybe they expect we start using Reprise.

I can understand this one. I play super weirdly and my oGCDs are always misaligned, so this change is great for me (more instant casts for more windows to keep my oGCDs being used on cooldown!), but it's a bit of an odd choice for a job that was doing pretty well with the Endwalker design. Though I hope their solution to it isn't to simply have Acceleration be required to instant cast Grand Impact, because that feels... really boring, to just make Acceleration only used for Grand Impact?

Originally Posted by Sequora

I hope they revisit RDM job identity in 8.0. It started as what a traditional red mage was in older games - some white and black mage with a little melee. Over the last 3 expansions we’ve slowly become the rose mage. I want more white and black magic. A little sad that we have 4 out of 6 elements and PIC is launching with all 6 elements plus white and black aspected spells.

I don't particularly mind the use of "rose"/red magic; I think Red Mage leaning a bit more into Red Magic being a part of its aesthetic is nice, and just adds an extra part to its variety which is a charm point for me.

I do agree on being said about the missing elements; we're missing 3 of 8, technically, if we count Light and Dark; we have no Water, Ice, or Dark. I like Verflare, but I'd be happy to see some Ice and Water spells (AoE procs or upgrades?), and then Verflare become Verfoul or something. I'd also like to see Verfire/stone upgrades visually; I don't know why we got Jolt 3 instead, Jolt 2 doesn't look bad?

**Deslyxic** · 06-11-2024 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by Jade_Tyrant

Acceleration being an instant cast at all has made it a DPS gain already in Endwalker, because it's an extra use of the long-cast spells which are more damage than the short cast. Using it for burst windows will likely be rare because our buff windows are already full up with two melee combos; there are situations where we can't get two combos under buffs, but as far as I'm aware it doesn't tend to be common.

Acceleration by itself was never a DPS gain because in the next two GCD instead of doing a 320 pot followed by a 380 pot attack you do a 380 followed for a 320.
In order for Acceleration to be a DPS gain it needs to be used together with Swiftcast in order to do two 380 pot back to back.

Edit: I mean it's not a DPS gain when you don't need to move, obviously if you need to move casting is a DPS gain over not casting.

**Rongway** · 06-11-2024 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Deslyxic

Also also, and this is very technical, Acceleration offering now two insta cast GCDs it not longer works as a weave window re-alignment like before, meaning that cannot change the order of cast/dualcasts to not drift Fleche/Contre-sixte, and that we rely even more on Swiftcast to fix the alignment, defeating it's purpose as mobility tool too. Maybe they expect we start using Reprise.

Grand Impact Ready lasts 30s. You can Accelerate a spell and hold Grand Impact until after Fleche/ContreSixte. Just don't Accelerate too early leaving yourself with no procs, which would force Grand Impact.

Originally Posted by Jade_Tyrant

there are situations where we can't get two combos under buffs, but as far as I'm aware it doesn't tend to be common.

You can never get two full six step combos under Embolden because each six step combo takes about 12s to execute and Embolden is only 20s. The best you can do is 6+3 or 3+6, so if it can be helped you want to Embolden before the Verfinisher so you get two full spell combos and one melee combo, but you shouldn't purposefully delay anything to line it up like this.

Originally Posted by Deslyxic

Acceleration by itself was never a DPS gain because in the next two GCD instead of doing a 320 pot followed by a 380 pot attack you do a 380 followed for a 320.
In order for Acceleration to be a DPS gain it needs to be used together with Swiftcast in order to do two 380 pot back to back.

This reasoning is incorrect. You cannot consider only the first cast of the next Dualcast because Dualcast spells are a single construct spanning 5s. It doesn't matter that you still have to cast a 320p spell after using an Accelerated spell.

Potency of an Accelerated spell: 400 p / 2.5s = 160 p/s
Without Acceleration: (320 p + 390 p) / 5.0 s = 142 p/s

Already an Accelerated spell is better than a Dualcast. (Note I have included the proc values in the Verslowspell potency: +20p for an Accelerated spell that guarantees you get a Verfastspell spell to use instead of Jolt, and 10p without acceleration because there is a 50% chance to get a Verfastspell instead of Jolt. This potency belongs to the Verslowspell, not the Verfastspell, because the Verfastspell is only a Jolt if there is no Verslowspell before it, so calculations should be done with all Jolts.)

If you want to consider the next spell after the Accelerated spell you must consider the entire Dualcast:
Acceleration + Dualcast: (400 p + 320 p + 390 p) / 7.5s = 148 p/s

Even when you consider all the spells that you would cast in the 55s between accelerations, it's still a gain. However, it's just not worth dropping a free movement GCD for that gain if using Acceleration on cooldown would prevent you from comfortably handling a mechanic later.

(This post uses current EW potencies, but the mathematical concepts would remain the same in DT)

**mallleable** · 06-11-2024 10:22 AM

I'm pretty relieved that the procs off Embolden, and Manafication are oGCDs. It can't fit anymore GCDs under buffs. The mana cost changes to AOE are also great.

**Deslyxic** · 06-11-2024 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Rongway

Potency of an Accelerated spell: 400 p / 2.5s = 160 p/s
Without Acceleration: (320 p + 390 p) / 5.0 s = 142 p/s

Already an Accelerated spell is better than a Dualcast. (Note I have included the proc values in the Verslowspell potency: +20p for an Accelerated spell that guarantees you get a Verfastspell spell to use instead of Jolt, and 10p without acceleration because there is a 50% chance to get a Verfastspell instead of Jolt. This potency belongs to the Verslowspell, not the Verfastspell, because the Verfastspell is only a Jolt if there is no Verslowspell before it, so calculations should be done with all Jolts.)

If you want to consider the next spell after the Accelerated spell you must consider the entire Dualcast:
Acceleration + Dualcast: (400 p + 320 p + 390 p) / 7.5s = 148 p/s

Even when you consider all the spells that you would cast in the 55s between accelerations, it's still a gain. However, it's just not worth dropping a free movement GCD for that gain if using Acceleration on cooldown would prevent you from comfortably handling a mechanic later.

(This post uses current EW potencies, but the mathematical concepts would remain the same in DT)

Yeah no, that's wrong, both the reasoning and the potency, RDM has no 390p or 400p actions. I was wrong too because I forgot the guaranteed ready proc which is a 20p gain, 10p in reality because thunder/aero have already a 50% chance to proc. I'm not gonna keep arguing this because this is well understood math, go to The Balance if you want a full explanation.

But the point is a 10 potency gain is hardly worth to spend Acceleration just for the damage, but now in DT with Grand Impact it's a 180-200p gain, and that it's worth spending it on.

**Rongway** · 06-12-2024 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Deslyxic

RDM has no 390p or 400p actions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

Verslowspells have a 50% chance to increase the potency of the next spell by 20p. Expected value of Verslowspell potency without acceleration is therefore increased by 50% of 20p, and with acceleration 100% of 20p. You always calculate the first spell of a Dualcast as a Jolt because it wouldn't be a Verfastspell without the proc from a Verslowspell. Since a proc from a Verslowspell is required for a Verfastspell, the potency difference between Jolt and a Verfastspell belongs to the Verslowspell. Likewise the expected potency of a Verfinisher is 20p higher than listed unless you're overwriting a proc.

**Acelyn** · 06-22-2024 03:19 AM

redmage needs ogcd bloat to be worth something in dungeons as you chase mobs behind a tank, seems the devs noticed that shortcoming and solved it.

currently if you burned your gauge after a bossfight you dont have anything to really hit with while on the move, something that smn is great at, ive been a rdm main for awhile but it was always annoying how it could locked into cycle of trying to cast when enemies start getting low health,

dt looks like it'll keep its core yet be a bit more helpful during movement.

**Vejj** · 06-24-2024 01:32 PM

I'm wavering between the monk (which will be super fun to play with Dawntrail) or the red mage.
At the moment, the red mage has the edge in terms of style and functionality - but I've always played through a new addon as a monk - it's been hugely worthwhile as a monk to punch Zenos in the mouth, since ff14 re-release monk of the first hour).

Secondly, it's all about effectiveness. The red mage has not matured well in Endwalker. Hope that changes in Dawntrail.
The resurrection is a nice-to-have, but the red mage is and remains a DPS class and I found it a shame that it is mostly avoided just because it is not a FOTM class like the reaper, samurai, dancer and black mage or summoner

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RDM in 7.0, the good the bad and the annoying