#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Tigore]

If we do look at the competitor Warcraft, Haste functions better there. They even have an OP 30% Haste buff window provided from Bloodlust / Heroism / Time Warp. Although they handle party DPS buffs differently to make it possible. If there are some additional changes in the latest two expansions that change this a bit, apologies for missing them.

The main difference is the buffs are essentially apply and forget for 30 minutes to an hour. They are weaker versions of our FF14 buffs that are persistent for every moment. Two classes that provide the same type of buff do not stack either and just overwrite each other. In a way, they function like our buffs that are provided by having a certain role in the party (Eg. 1% all stats if a Physical Range is present = Blessing of Kings for WoW Paladin). The only other buff window I remember would be DPS potions and those can be independent for everyone too. As a result, you can drift away from other people's burst all you want and it would be okay in most cases. As long as everyone at least capitalizes on the 30% Haste window first. The debuff cooldown is so long that you usually expect just one per encounter.

If we translate this to FF14, we would either have to remove the burst party buffs like Battle Litany or Trick Attack or purposely desync their cooldown timers. The former would be way easier to do since a 1 minute timer still meshes well with 2 minutes. Other than that, reducing cooldown timers from Haste would be bad with what we got here.

[Shurrikhan]

The long-term WoW buffs function as no more than our 1% stat buff each for each role included in a party, with the sole difference that they fall off on death.

It had quite a few actual active (de)buffs in the past to concentrate fire similar to Resistance Down debuffs, but outside of Augmentor abilities, a couple Paladin spells, the aforementioned Heroism/Bloodlust/Time warp/Evoker_Reskin and Power Infusion, those are now likewise nigh-passive in PvE if the enemy is not CC-able, applied simply by any Monk (physical) or Demon Hunter (magical) hitting the target. In PvP, they're still very present, though.

Aside: XIV alpha iterations actually played around with a basis for a couple relatively straightforward solutions for both syncing varying GCD speeds and for otherwise inflexible raid buffs: like Energy in WoW, one could pool Stamina Points (SP) and thereby have, say, a one-third margin by which to "overclock" their rotation for a burst and slow down again later in compensation until recovered, and Technique Points (TP) would be used only for... group-affecting "Techniques" a la XIII's place for such a gauge but with more frequent interaction. Accordingly, all GCD speeds and raid (de)buffs were inherently flexible, and raid buffs (direct or indirect, AoE or as a debuff on target) had to be sparingly introduced as to be tactically distinct and individually interesting due to competing with each other. /shrug

[Kohashi]

snip

One major reason why I played every single MMO under the sun before committing to FF14 was because it was the casual WoW copy. A game that I tried and fell asleep playing, bored out of my mind despite being a huge WoW lore nerd and lover.


Let's leave WoW alone, not like it doesn't have its own set of issues. Also, I was watching Todd's stream today and he mentioned that he finds WoW refreshing after a big FF14 burnout while his friend that he was leveling with said the other thing around.

So I think some just suffer from burnout and think the grass is greener on the other side.

[Minarisweet]

Its kinda funny seeing the forums try to figure out game dev even though that's the dev's job but they dont really care about doing better so this all moot anyway.

Don't let bad faith arguments trick you into trying to do the dev's work for them.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The bar is so low at this point I think good amount of people would literally pay more to have the dev steals players' work if it means to not fall asleep and breaking their nuke hotkey.

[Tigore]

I can understand not going for the approach from my last post. It was more of thinking what would happen if we did want Haste to do things like reduce cooldown timers. Considering it would be quite the upheaval of party buffs from almost all classes, we may have to accept that the 2 minute meta could be the "lesser evil" to accept if we still want those buffs unchanged. That's just how FF14 works now.

For Skill Speed, all I can think of that is more safe is to buff the auto attack speed. It may be possible to place in an additional effect that allows the auto attack to cleave / splash damage to off targets as well. This might still give a slight favorance to single target, but it might still be okay to give these types of niches for the roles.

Spell Speed is probably already somewhat okay for BLM being a long casting turret. Although SMN mostly lost the benefits with the DoT removal. In order to match with what I suggested for Skill Speed, a multistrike property may need to be added for all the spells. Considering the power of autos, it will probably be in the 1 - 5% range of copying damage dealt at first.

We could make both stats also scale up the auto / copied damage the more of the applicable Haste we got too if we go this route.

[Rolder50]

If we do look at the competitor Warcraft, Haste functions better there. They even have an OP 30% Haste buff window provided from Bloodlust / Heroism / Time Warp. Although they handle party DPS buffs differently to make it possible. If there are some additional changes in the latest two expansions that change this a bit, apologies for missing them.

The main difference is the buffs are essentially apply and forget for 30 minutes to an hour. They are weaker versions of our FF14 buffs that are persistent for every moment. Two classes that provide the same type of buff do not stack either and just overwrite each other. In a way, they function like our buffs that are provided by having a certain role in the party (Eg. 1% all stats if a Physical Range is present = Blessing of Kings for WoW Paladin). The only other buff window I remember would be DPS potions and those can be independent for everyone too. As a result, you can drift away from other people's burst all you want and it would be okay in most cases. As long as everyone at least capitalizes on the 30% Haste window first. The debuff cooldown is so long that you usually expect just one per encounter.

If we translate this to FF14, we would either have to remove the burst party buffs like Battle Litany or Trick Attack or purposely desync their cooldown timers. The former would be way easier to do since a 1 minute timer still meshes well with 2 minutes. Other than that, reducing cooldown timers from Haste would be bad with what we got here.

I do much prefer the way WoW handles their party burst buff. You get Heroism as your big group burst once per fight, MAYBE two if it's an exceptionally long fight. So you plan for the big group burst but the rest of the time it's all personal cooldowns / rotation.

[ForsakenRoe]

@ForsakenRoe
And let's say... your suggestion is viable, the fact you need people to play perfectly already puts you at a loss.

As for the innovation... For example, your shield is a worse version of Divine Caress since that gives a shield + regen while yours only gives a shield.

As for the color change, is just-> Glare hit-> change color-> persistent. Want to change? Mechanics coming? Can I dps? Does anyone need heal/rez?-> Glare again. (It can function as a "stance" change since you seem to be into that idea)

You just assumed there was no talent tree involved.

while I do think class design can improve some people give SE a lot more shit than they should and they don't respect the depth of how the classes have been planned. This is in fact the entire purpose of the debate with you.

Who says you have to play perfectly? You don't need to play perfectly now, there's room even in Savage and Ultimate, content with tight DPS checks, to drop GCDs (to allow for players to use healing GCDs for safety). As long as potencies are balanced intelligently, a more complex kit can have room to be more complex, while keeping the barrier to entry low. For example, I put Dia as 12s, 430p total, and Banish at 15s CD and '40p more than Glare'. So, a casual player would lose an average of 6.6p per GCD that they don't use Banish for (if they replace it with Glare). A casual player would lose less damage to using Glare instead of Dia because Dia has a lower total. A casual player would also lose less damage to using Dia to move compared to currently, as the 'on cast' potency would be more frontloaded. The only way for a player to 'lose damage compared to currently' is to use the exact same rotation as currently, exactly two Dias per minute and no more and no less

The shield is also 'Succor but without the heal', or 'E.Prognosis without the heal', or 'Gobskin from BLU', or 'Consolation without the heal' or 'Neutral Sect Aspected Helios, without the heal or regen'. It's almost like 'action applies a barrier and is AOE' is such a wide reaching design idea, that there's going to naturally be some overlap between it and other similar actions. In which case, we'd better write off all of SGE as being 'not innovative' as it's 80% a reskin of SCH's actions, WHM and AST have a ton of actions that are identical in function (and in some cases, even the potency is identical) between them. Cure/Benefic, Cure2/Benefic2, Regen/Asp.Benefic, Medica/Helios, Medica3/Helios Conjunction, Divine Benison/Celestial Intersection, Aquaveil/Exaltation

Putting your healing access behind a stance, that requires a different GCD to cycle, is a speedrun to the 'player misplayed and caused a wipe' that SE is so deathly allergic to. Say you need to heal something (eg a 'get to 100% HP' mechanic), but you didn't know it was coming up and so you just pressed the Glare button to cycle out of that stance. At minimum you'd need 5 seconds to do the 2 GCDs to cycle to DPS stance, and then to Mit stance, and then back to Healing mode, all before you can even start to address the mechanic. And in some mechanics, 5s is the whole duration you're given to solve it (EG White Hole in O4S)

I assumed there'd be no talent tree involved, because I assumed that no external system were involved. If I had said 'oh the reason I didn't include Raise in the list was actually because I was thinking of reworking items so that anyone can Raise via Phoenix Down' I expect I'd have been DQ'd, frame one. But surely 'there's an external system that works in tandem with the idea to make the idea function' is just admitting that the idea doesn't actually function, without being propped up by the external system? Which is something that annoys me to no end with WOW balancing, the idea of 'oh this class underperforms but it's okay because the tier set effect makes it catch up and be balanced with the rest'

SE have previously said 'we didn't really know what to do with Scholar' (pre-EW, as an explanation for why we got Expedient). We give SE 'shit' (which is actually 'constructive criticism' and 'potential fresh ideas/inspiration') because we care about the game, not because we hate it. I don't think it's particularly fair to say that I don't 'respect the depth' of the Job designs, because if I didn't, I wouldn't have used the current Job designs as the foundation to build off of. Surely, if I really didn't respect the depth I'd have thrown everything out and started from scratch?

Like for example I would love to see a Chrono Healer that would manipulate the time.

For example a spell. Rewind - rewinds the party HP to 5s ago. Used-> let's say after a major mechanic and it will heal back to what those previous values were.

Fast Forward -> Provides a 10% Spell/skill speed reduction Or flat.. I am undecided...LOL.

That's AST (especially older versions, eg HW/SB).

That's Macrocosmos.

That's old Arrow (from HW/SB).

The bar is so low at this point I think good amount of people would literally pay more to have the dev steals players' work if it means to not fall asleep and breaking their nuke hotkey.

Reminds me of this

I agree with these designs so much that they make me even sadder when I see healers in the game now.

Those Scholar changes...just yes.

I was initially worried because I had fairly recently warmed up to Dissipation, however seeing that decision making be placed on the strategies makes it all worth it. Of course, the new Synchronization Tactics still offers decision making for how to utilize your Aetherflow, but it no longer removes the fairy from the battlefield. I am also in utter AWE of how well you cleaned up any potential button bloat; the way you handled the Eos/Selene dilemma by leaning into them being two halves of Lily was a stroke of genius. The way you interact with your fairy now makes her feel like a companion rather than a living oGCD. I would 100% rally behind this.

I would pay double my current sub price if Square Enix just lifted ForsakenRoe’s designs and put them in the game.

If the price to pay for better healer design was a literal price, I'd pay it too. Make it an optional Mogstation purchase so that people who want to have the current 'press Broil 22 times per minute' gameplay can continue to enjoy such gameplay

[Tigore]

@ForsakenRoe

Sorry I couldn't get to what you said very quickly. I was discussing how Warcraft made Haste work there and the difficulties we face in comparison.

The suggestions I made for Spell Speed and Skill Speed had all of the other tanks and DPS in mind as well. Since discussing changes there will affect them too. It would definitely make it easier for TEN and PIE to be desirable by replacing and removing DET's function. Critical materia being split into a percentage chance and damage amount increase would probably both be favored for melds still. Since Skill Speed and Spell Speed doesn't seem to be very desirable still. Some classes currently only want just enough to reach a certain GCD breakpoint and the first one tends to be just a little if anything (SAM - 2.14 and MNK - 1.93 with 700 - 1000 ish). Some of the others either don't mention it or says it can prefer to stick to 2.5. I can see it working a bit better for some classes by increasing the gauge resource more or speeding up a gauge cooldown with stacks like the WHM lilies or BLM Polyglot. Although some classes don't really have any applicable things to that nature and / or more so use traditional cooldown timers that hate getting drifted (DRG and NIN). Looking at the NIN now, the auto attack idea might still fail due to multiple Ninjutsu casts that would probably benefit more from the multi-strike idea.

@Lorika

I am also a bit wary about the talent system too. The example I used still had a vast majority that were picked no matter what. Although if it is balanced right, maybe it could still turn out good for some node choices. In a way, we used to have something to that nature in the early builds of FF14. The cross class action system that got changed to role actions. A BLM could actually take Cure and I was able to heal low level people through with the Umbral Ice Stance for those lvl 10 - 20 FATEs. In this case, it was only helpful at low levels and high levels proved to be a different story when WHMs started using Cure 2 and Regen. The system was revamped since cooldowns like Swiftcast from BLM and Blood for Blood from DRG were absolutely used first for the DPS (I think I got the name assignments right). It also meant you had to play those classes to at least lvl 34ish to get those required abilities.

[Kohashi]

Putting your healing access behind a stance, that requires a different GCD to cycle, is a speedrun to the 'player misplayed and caused a wipe' that SE is so deathly allergic to.

Perhaps, but I don't work for SE and I have no such allergy, only dust, and life in general.

Also, it requires some strategic planning and execution. That's why healing is the default stance and can function as an entry point. The switch between "stances" is something that will come as a player masters it.

And speaking of SE, if I were to work there (yeah right..LOL) I would completely redesign the tutorial. I would make 2 major instances.
1. battle-related and
1 job-related. Where new players are provided with a basic introduction to their job and role in a party as well as a basic introduction to spell rotation/weaving.

I assumed

Indeed. You had full creative ownership except for the 10-spell limit constraint.

That's Macrocosmos.

At first glance, it does look like that but it's not because Macro = "For the effect's duration, 50% of damage taken is compiled.
Restores HP equal to a cure of 200 potency plus compiled damage when the effect expires or upon execution of Microcosmos."
Basically, Rewind can heal to full HP while Macro does not (or can but only under specific circumstances). It can be viewed as a party-wide benediction if planned correctly.

That's old Arrow (from HW/SB).

That was a single target effect while mine is party wide.

But then again, I am not even trying to dispute my design > your design, or my design > SE design or my ideas > SE ideas. There were a bunch of random thoughts and how I would approach the task and for the sake of conversation.

I would also love a Healer that uses their life force (HP) to replenish, buff, and heal party members.