#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Aravell]

God imagine if the 14 developers would ever actually justify their decisions like this and not be terrified of nerfs

It’s weird to be jealous of what the WOW devs are doing but this is so well thought out, makes total sense and considers all sides that it’s exactly what I’d want from this sort of change

You mean "terrified of nerfs unless they're nerfing SCH"?

I think SCH remains the only job that has gotten a direct nerf in recent memory.

[Supersnow845]

Yes but as i said and i assume you know, in WoW tanks are literally unkillable even in completely unreasonable situations and can effectively and speedily solo current content.
FFXIV tanks are not even close to what WoW tanks are so pretending the issue is the same and tank self-sufficiency needs to go is ridiculous.

And i used WoW like i could use any other MMO where tank self-sufficiency is high, which is like 8 mmos out of 10.

Healer fantasy and fun should not come from tanks essentially becoming DPS players who can mitigate tank busters and can aggro a lot.

And that’s our entire point

Tanks functionally don’t exist in this game as tanks, they are DPS with some mitigation and a lot of healing. You don’t want healer fantasy to reduce tanks to “DPS but ones who take the tankbusters” but that’s not healers fault, that’s them stripping out literally anything that actually make a tank a tank from 14’s tanks.

Denying healer gameplay in a hard trinity which is healing primarily of the tank because if you did it that way tanks would just be DPS isn’t a healer problem that’s a tank problem

[LyraShu]

Yes but as i said and i assume you know, in WoW tanks are literally unkillable even in completely unreasonable situations and can effectively and speedily solo current content.
FFXIV tanks are not even close to what WoW tanks are so pretending the issue is the same and tank self-sufficiency needs to go is ridiculous.

And i used WoW like i could use any other MMO where tank self-sufficiency is high, which is like 8 mmos out of 10.

Healer fantasy and fun should not come from tanks essentially becoming DPS players who can mitigate tank busters and can aggro a lot.

And I don't think we are saying the self-sustain needs to fully go, but I would say that there is a bit. In fact, if I want to be lazy and not care while I am in Deep dungeons, I play tank so I don't need to use potions. If I wanna actually have harder gameplay, I play dps.

Oh, and this is taken also from that wow page because they are saying all the right things~

"Tanks will still have strong answers to threats or periods of danger, but less sustained self-healing.

Tanks should have autonomy over their own survival and will still have cooldowns or emergency self-heals like Renewal or Impending Victory. But the healing of continuous effects like Elune’s Favored or Indomitable are reduced, so tanks must have more of a partnership with healers to restore their missing health once it’s lost."

[Ayan_Calvesse]

"Healer gameplay should not be dominated by tank healing.-----let me throw real buffs on the party -ded-

Honestly I feel this would be the path I would take with healers; I would transition them to a "support" model; currently the FF XIV dynamic is "shield or pure" for healers; but I would like to see generally all the roles start to vary more; however then you would begin to see more anal statics where they would only demand certain classes as the balance nightmare begins.

Myself I played a "Healer" for migard in DAOC; we provided buffs and most importantly a melee attack speed buff in a group of players that were most commonly melee-dps. So while I was healing I was also providing CC and this additional side job which felt good. I think looking at each of the role designations and making them fill some sort of sub-role would be nice; but being careful not to have the sub-role outshine the actual jobs roles. Its one of the reasons I am really reluctant to make healers in FF XIV a significant source of damage as it will then become a expectation and skill ceiling that will round up some decent healers but sub-par DPS dealers in the healing community. I worry given that "faster killing = faster winning" will just round out all the other sub-role healers however. Its why I always roll my eyes at the GNB/DRK as the damage Off-tank notion as generally the majority of them are not drastically outpacing paladins or warriors damage wise despite their lower survival.

[IDontPetLalas]

here you go. Even the vaunted WoW has noticed a problem with tanks being unkillable. a little knowledge of the issue goes a long way.

https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker...94517#24223979

Thanks, if only FFXIV would align in future with that.

[Ruruura]

The problem is that it is extremely hard to balance tanks to feel tanky and satisfying to play while also making them dependant on healers because you require me to hurt in order to play your fantasy, but me hurting too often kills my fantasy.
I do not think this problem could be solved without heavily redesigning all tanks around defense and party protection (Perhaps more mechanics requiring tanks to do stuff like paladin wings instead of the current wack-a-dodge)

But i do not have faith on them doing any of this, so what i fear is for them to just nerf us to appease you somewhat, and neither of us truly getting what we want, which is more likely what is going to happen.

[LyraShu]

The problem is that it is extremely hard to balance tanks to feel tanky and satisfying to play while also making them dependant on healers because you require me to hurt in order to play your fantasy, but me hurting too often kills my fantasy.
I do not think this problem could be solved without heavily redesigning all tanks around defense and party protection (Perhaps more mechanics requiring tanks to do stuff like paladin wings instead of the current wack-a-dodge)

But i do not have faith on them doing any of this, so what i fear is for them to just nerf us to appease you somewhat, and neither of us truly getting what we want, which is more likely what is going to happen.

Personally, I think that is kinda fair to say.

I will say that in the current day, I had to force myself to play healer for my friends and it was just because of the 100+ casts of my 1 ability in a trial, not really from the other job's abilities. I do get, quite often, poked at for trying to mit the tank during a tank buster though also in the current gameplay so I agree, there is a balance between too much self-sustain and not enough.

Really though, IF there is an answer that comes out from this, I just hope that it becomes an interesting change and one that doesn't invalidate anyone's jobs.

[aiqa]

The problem is that it is extremely hard to balance tanks to feel tanky and satisfying to play while also making them dependant on healers because you require me to hurt in order to play your fantasy, but me hurting too often kills my fantasy.
I do not think this problem could be solved without heavily redesigning all tanks around defense and party protection (Perhaps more mechanics requiring tanks to do stuff like paladin wings instead of the current wack-a-dodge)

But i do not have faith on them doing any of this, so what i fear is for them to just nerf us to appease you somewhat, and neither of us truly getting what we want, which is more likely what is going to happen.

Yeah it's fun being overpowered in a multiplayer game. But I hope you'll understand it's not a great look to ask for sympathy for your fears about losing that, from the role that is most effected by overtuned tanks. Other players are not just there as support characters for WAR tanks to enjoy their power fantasy.

[Ruruura]

Yeah it's fun being overpowered in a multiplayer game. But I hope you'll understand it's not a great look to ask for sympathy for your fears about losing that, from the role that is most effected by overtuned tanks. Other players are not just there as support characters for WAR tanks to enjoy their power fantasy.

I mean i play PLD and SGE so i would not know, but as i said before, the problem here is that the entire game is designed around DPS instead of defense.

If you want to take healing away then you have to give tanks something else, you cannot just turn tanks into "dps with a provoke" so that you feel relevant and useful.

But what?

If you make us more tanky and chonky, like the classic design, then a whole new healing issue will happen as healing will be slow and predictable and only busters will be a real threat, which i doubt is much more engaging than what you have now.

[Shurrikhan]

Tanks having self sustain and lots of it is not a new concept in MMOS, if you think FFXIV tanks are self-sufficient just wait until you see what a geared tank can do in a game like WoW where it is not only that they do not need healers, they do not need the dps either as they can solo normal content and even still relevant raids on their own.

FFXIV´s tank self sustain s not the issue nor the reason why healing in FFIXV is in the situation it is, and it is just a lazy "solution" that would affect the rest of us.

So again, keep us out of your problems.

I mean, doing normal content as a geared player late xpac in WoW is akin to doing last expansion's early content unsynced here but also with actual ability to kite. It's a bit apples to oranges.

Agreed that reducing tank sustain isn't really the answer, though. (Though I'd happily see passive %DR greatly reduced, thereby placing more emphasis on the active skills, even if they have to get a use or two more per minute to compensate.)