#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[YarnMage48]

Just because it's important doesn't stop it from being filler.

Every melee 123 combo is important, but it's still filler in that it's what your press when there's nothing else to press. Burst Shot on Bard is important, but it's still the filler button when you've got nothing else to press. Dosis is the primary attack button for Sage, but you still only press it because there's nothing else to press.

See the issue here is this idea that any skills in a kit are "filler". Damage spells aren't what I use when I have nothing better to do. I use them because I would like to do damage to the boss.

The way I see it, the more damage I do to enemies, the faster they die. The faster they die, the less damage they do to the team. In the words of Mr. Happy in his healing video, "The enemy cannot hurt you if they are dead". And really, what's more effective at mitigating damage? A shield? Or just killing the enemy before they can dish out that damage?

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

No, healers don't need to do any DPS to clear a fight. But we can help our team clear faster, and in so doing, we utilize our most powerful mitigative ability of all - killings things before they can hurt us more.

Nothing we do is filler. All of it contributes to the goal.

[Shurrikhan]

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

No, there is a distinct and consistent definition of filler that absolutely does apply to each healer's standard acontextually usable attack.

What do you use when you have nothing else to use (e.g., no eHP checks to meet, nothing sufficiently nearing the end of its duration or with enough upcoming uptime requirements to be worth reapplying early, nothing at risk of wasting cooling time)...
....to fill the space between higher value-per-uptime actions?

Filler.

Which is that on SGE? Dosis.

Which is that on AST? Malefic.
Which is that on SCH? Broil.
Which is that on WHM? Glare.

What, then, do Dosis, Malefic, Broil, and Glare amount to? A shared, wholly interchangeable "filler" action.

______________________

Do not mistake "filler" with "zero-value". "Filler" has never meant that, and its actual meaning is obvious from the word itself. The latter is called (effectively) idling, or leaving time unfilled or wasted.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think ForsakenRoe was trying to give an example -just how little Eukrasia adds- into SGE's gameplay rather than actually suggesting SE to turn them into even more of a diet-SCH.

Basically, yeh. If anyone thinks I want SGE to become even more similar to SCH, after all of what I wrote here... yeh, IDK

The point (though made not-very-well, possibly) is that, of all the possible designs SE could have used to make SGE 'feel different from SCH', they chose one with such small difference that it can be undone by simply tweaking a couple of numbers. There's also like... zero reason, once you have the Eukrasia button, to ever press Diagnosis or Prognosis. E.Prog/E.Diag at least restores part of their 'damage cost' via Toxikon, the MP cost increase is ignoreable due to MP economy being so strong (and the increase between Prognosis and E.Prog is literally 100), the MP you save by using the Toxikon charge given (400p saved) outweighs the 100p cheaper cost of Prognosis anyway, the extra healing that Diagnosis gives over E.Diag (or Prognosis gives over E.Prog) is easily covered by... literally anything else in the kit. The only thing that makes the distinction 'interesting' at all, is that the shields are instant and the heals are not.

What I'm trying to get at though, is 'why have a button that upgrades my 'Medica 1 button' into a 'Succor button' (E.Prognosis and Succor even have the same effective barrier potencies!)', when there are alternative ways that the two could have been made distinct in gameplay, such as 'attack which costs more MP than Dosis, deals same damage as Dosis, but applies the Kardia heal to everyone in an AOE instead of just one person'? Or 'attack which applies a barrier to Kardia target', or 'attack which applies a Regen to Kardia target', etc. Why not lean into the idea that SGE heals by attacking (via Kardia), and give it kit that allows it to perform more of the Healer Role Responsibilities via Kardia?

Imagine a new healer comes out, say they finally manage to come up with something for Chemist. If it has an AOE heal on the GCD that 'heals for X potency, and applies a barrier for Y% of healing done', nobody's going to care what small 'twist' they do to make it seem a little different, it's going to be referred to as 'their Succor'. If it doesn't have a Barrier attached and is just a pure heal, it's 'their Medica'. And it's okay IMO that they have a similar base kit, AST and WHM have incredibly similar base kits, Helios/Medica, Regen/Asp.Helios, Cure/Benefic, etc. It's the extra kit they have that distinguishes the two. WHM has Afflatus spells and a refund system to make them damage neutral, AST has a lot of 'delayed healing' whether via HOTs or 'literally wait to let the action become stronger' like Star, plus it also has an entire system to play around, the Arcana. SCH and SGE don't have enough distinction in that 'extra kit', IMO, hence they get the judgemental glare. Addersgall is Aetherflow, the spenders are similar enough that they have the same keybinds, and Toxikon is 'Ruin 2 with extra steps'

BTW, Eukrasia is just 'inverse Emergency Tactics'. Instead of 'remove Barrier to heal harder', it removes part of the heal (Prognosis goes from 300>100) to apply a Barrier. Which is funny, because SGE also has 'Actual Emergency Tactics, but also the inverse' with Pepsis, where you take an applied Barrier, and then purposely break it to cause instant healing. They could have at least made it so, when a barrier breaks from damage, a buff is left for a few seconds that Pepsis can work off of, allowing you to have a gameplay of 'raidwide hits, instantly Pepsis to get a 'healing-based counterattack' of sorts'. That alone would be pretty cool to see (especially if Pepsis had a shorter CD, 30s is ridiculous for what it does)

[Supersnow845]

See the issue here is this idea that any skills in a kit are "filler". Damage spells aren't what I use when I have nothing better to do. I use them because I would like to do damage to the boss.

The way I see it, the more damage I do to enemies, the faster they die. The faster they die, the less damage they do to the team. In the words of Mr. Happy in his healing video, "The enemy cannot hurt you if they are dead". And really, what's more effective at mitigating damage? A shield? Or just killing the enemy before they can dish out that damage?

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

No, healers don't need to do any DPS to clear a fight. But we can help our team clear faster, and in so doing, we utilize our most powerful mitigative ability of all - killings things before they can hurt us more.

Nothing we do is filler. All of it contributes to the goal.

I think you are getting mixed up, filler does not mean that it’s useless or only something that may or may not be worth doing. Filler simply means what you press when you have nothing else to press

Dosis is filler, cascade and fountain are filler, fire in red, aero in green and water in blue are filler.

Filler isn’t a bad thing it just has a pretty strict definition

[YarnMage48]

I replied to your discussion of their offensive place in single-target combat. Of those, only Dosis III and Eukrasian Dosis III are relevant, and are analogous to any other filler-DoT pair.

But by all means, let's run your example through more broadly.

Your means of performing your GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 5 keys (Dosis, Dykrasis, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Eukrasia).
SCH's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 6 keys (Broil, Biolysis, Art of War, Adloquiem, Succor, Physick), of which only 5 keys are actually used.
WHM's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Glare, Dia, Holy, Cure II, Regen, Medica, Medica II), of which only 6 keys are actually used.
AST's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Malefic, Combust, Gravity, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Helix, Aspected Helix), of which only 5 keys are generally used.

So its savings relative to other kit designs are, in effect... 1 in 32 keys.

And I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated after so many times, but since you're seemingly continuing to interpret critiques of healer same-ish-ness as if said critiques disliked what little distinction exists...

...none of this is to say that Eukrasia is bad. It simply happens to be laughable to say that hitting your DoT once per 30 seconds on SGE feels different just because you hit [2]->[1] instead of the normal [1] instead of just hitting [2] instead of [1] or that hitting your STHeal+ GCD feels different from AST hitting its STHeal+ GCD just because you hit [2]->[3] instead of just [3], etc., let alone that those fractional changes actually allow SGE gameplay to feel distinct from SCH (or even the broader basic healer template altogether).

I.e., that Sage's uniqueness could have been, was implied to be, and should have been far more than what we got.

And people trying to, say, put an [obligatory 1s GCD + 1.5s GCD pair] on a pedestal as if it were sufficiently unique from any [2.5s GCD with identical control and considerations] to make its job feel truly distinct... only makes it harder to get there.

Look mate. I said that Eukrasia reduces the amount of hotbar spaces needed for all of Sage's GCD skills. That's it. No amount of red herrings changes the fact that 5 is less than 8.

And there was another poster who literally said that they dislike having to hit Eukrasia and that it feels awful to them. By all means. Laugh at them. Since you think their opinion is laughable. I personally think that it's a completely valid opinion.

I'd love to see the Kardia and Eukrasia system expanded upon. There have been some really fun ideas put forward in their thread and I hope that we might see some cool changes in the future. But I also enjoy Sage in its current iteration. That's all there is to it.

[TheDustyOne]

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

[Supersnow845]

But I also enjoy Sage in its current iteration. That's all there is to it.

That’s the thing though if you enjoy SGE in its current form then that’s totally fine, nobody said you can’t. This whole discussion started from you pointing out that you don’t feel like the “SGE is a worse SCH” topic is valid because you believe it comes from only looking at similarities and not differences. When we pointed out that to us by and large the CURRENT eukrasia system is difference for the sake of difference and not meaningful difference as every “thing” it confers SCH has an answer to then to you it seemed like we think eukrasia is bad

Eukrasia isn’t a bad system, it’s an under-utilised system that between it not doing anything terrible unique and the existence of Seraphism means that it doesn’t really act meaningfully different to what SCH does. Kardia is similar with its impact relative to the fairy. Addersgall is actually a blatant rip off of aetherflow and the rest of the unique skills have mirroring effects

[YarnMage48]

snip

Yes there is in fact a reason I found your post to be quite baffling. Thank you for clarifying.

I think part of what we are running into here is that most, if not all of the people in this discussion have a pretty good idea of how to actually use their kit. As a result, we aren't using GCD heals very often. And maybe opinions on that differ but I do like that model. But, given that whenever a new raid tier comes out, the Devs wake up and choose piety for all the highest ilvl gear pieces, I can only assume that there is a large faction of healers out there who struggle with MP economy. And if you're struggling with MP economy you probably aren't utilizing your kit very well. My official position on the matter is that how much piety you want on your gear is an expression of skill. And well. Some players need the piety. I have played with some of them. So the current way Eukrasia works has more applicability to players who are leaning more on those GCD skills. To say it more broadly, the class is functional for players with a broad range of skill. But at the same time, it's also nice to have the pure heal options if a run gets really really bad. And hey it happens. But that also means that, in large part, the gimmick of Eukrasia losses the spotlight for players with more skill. And that is a little unfortunate. But I don't think that means that its a poor design choice.

It's also worth saying that Philosophia is essentially a party-wide Kardia for its duration, if you aren't using it for the heal buff. So they did expand the concept of Kardia in a way similar to what you've described. I'd love it if they did that more.

I am going to go back to my position that one of the main differences between Sage and Scholar is adaptability. Yes a lot of things are built very similarly and can be keybound using the same pattern, but there are a lot of subtle differences and in practice Sage can do more on the fly. Emergency Tactics and Pepsis are a great example of this. Because Emergency Tactics needs to be used before the heal GCD, your scholar is going to need to plan for that. But Pepsis is hit after, so a Sage can decide after the fact that they'd prefer the heal. However, the heal potential of Emergency tactics is higher, especially if you were to say, combine it with Recitation. So I still find them to be very different classes in practice, even if there are a lot of parallels in the way the class is set up. Could there be more? Absolutely. I'd love more. I just think that there's more there than SE gets credit for.

[Supersnow845]

Philosophia is probably the perfect example of what we are talking about. Why ISNT it a party wide kardia. Because it isn’t it pops with regular healing actions as well as damage options, and you can’t buff it with soteria. The literal one modulation tool for kardia that SGE has and one that got a baffling CD reduction in this expansion

Literally one expansion in and they are already basically dumping kardia because they want everyone to be able to use philosophia

Then using your example of ET, sure the SCH has to think ahead and gets rewarded with potentially higher HPS but does that actually affect your decision whether to use it or not……..no you both just press it during a white hole/harrowing hell style mechanic and achieve the same thing

[YarnMage48]

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.